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Mike Sailors Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1838 Location: Austin/New York City
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Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Relaxing area two. _________________ www.mikesailors.com |
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Kidtrumpet New Member
Joined: 26 Nov 2014 Posts: 7 Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Whether standing or sitting to perform, at the instant of your initial attack, "TIGHTEN YOUR CAN!".... |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Keeping my head up, and not overblowing. |
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elgin Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Mar 2010 Posts: 111 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Simultaneous forward jaw motion and lower-lip curl while ascending. I think it never worked well before because my top lip wasn't strong enough to maintain its slight inward curl. _________________ Harrelson Dreams Trumpet
SIMA
Harrelson SpectraTone Yellow
Patrick 5.3C |
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markp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 2814 Location: Coarsegold, CA
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Mike Sailors wrote: | Relaxing area two. |
Area two? |
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oxleyk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4180
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Pedal tones are poison for me. I came here to post this before I realized it was in the Reinhardt forum. Every time I wander off and try methods that use pedals my general playing goes in the toilet. When I return to more Reinhardt-centric playing then everything improves in very short order.
Kent |
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Type3B Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2016 Posts: 108 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Hey Rich -- I'm glad that you brought up the topic of the firm left-hand grip. It's something that I need to keep in mind all the time. That said, I've always gotten a kick out of this video of Lynn Nicholson back in the day with Maynard's band.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v42j7xwOaIw |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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markp wrote: | Mike Sailors wrote: | Relaxing area two. |
Area two? |
This is not next to Area 51. I remember when Dave Sheetz first assigned me the putty ball routine, how my chops would tense up so horridly I couldn't play for 20 minutes. Just from playing one line!
Then I discovered the concept of deliberately using the drill to focus on co-ordination between area 1 and area 2, such that I was trying to get area 2 to relax while simultaneously generating the needed compression in area 1. Not long after, I could use the putty ball routine to relax my chops not only better than the way I was taught as a beginner to use pedal tones, but even better than via "low chromatics!" I also found that just like the instructions, the longer I could extend a line, the more benefit I got from it. I then discovered I could transfer the same "pointed feel" to Brandt #3, those piano arpeggios, that section, and that I could play really quietly pretty well, with a good sound, andit would feel just like doing the putty ball routine. This completely re-vamped my entire approach to the upper register.
It took me many years later for it to dawn on me that I could use the same putty ball routine to actually de-compress my chops as a I descend. DUH! That's an aspect of mechanics that seems to be ... 'kinda' important. |
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Dbfinn Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 Posts: 58 Location: UK
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Just touching lips before placing the mouthpiece.
I had lost much of the quality of my tone, especially in the low range. It has taken me about two months to realize that that was the problem |
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Dbfinn wrote: | Just touching lips before placing the mouthpiece.
I had lost much of the quality of my tone, especially in the low range. It has taken me about two months to realize that that was the problem
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Chris LaBarbera drummed that into me when I met with him several years back when he lived in NC. He reminded me about several things that drove home stuff that Doc taught me.
For instance, placing from "north to south," something that I was not consciously thinking about that I have revisited time and time again.
Not to mention playing softer in my middle and lower registers when in the practice room. I had just come from an Easter gig in Greenville, SC, and I had my Conn 28A with me. Chris picked up that horn cold (my cornet mouthpiece and everything!) and played the Arbans Carnival of Venice so effortlessly and deftly, definitely not powerhousing the notes. That sure made an impression on me!
But yes, "just touching" doesn't mean a Charles Atlas powerhouse pinching power. Thanks for the reminder! _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz |
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TrumpetMan17 Regular Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2009 Posts: 24 Location: Lansdowne, PA ( Philly Area )
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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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So many things to remember from Doc. My orientation was dated in 1967, I think (classified as IIIB FOR NOW, later went full out IVA!), and a couple years ago I looked at the, confusing to me, circle diagram of Inner Embouchoure movement to ascend/descend, superimposed with Muscular Tension. For me they went in opposite directions. With the help of my good friend, Dave Sheetz, I was able to finally understand it! It makes all the difference in the world in getting a good fat sound in ALL registers and that’s on a Pivot System #2 plastic mpc!
I find several things I keep in mind to “keep me out of trouble”. Buzzing firmness of entire face prior to placing the mpc, extend the jaw ( actually I do this first the firm up the face. I play with my lower teeth in front to my upper teeth, at rest my lower teeth are behind my upper teeth), place the mpc south-to-north, inhale and attack. Use Type V tongue as much as possible for endurance. In the course of a particularly long & loud (Rock/Funk band) number or set if my jaw tires and recedes a bit I’ve learned to follow-the-jaw and reset it’s position after each rest along with “retrieving the lower lip”. Only takes a second. Makes all the difference in the world.
You have to understand, I played 9 years in HS and College. Put it down for 21 years. I’m now back almost 22 years! And, I’m playing stronger than I was over 40 years ago. My comeback was ALL made possible by the approach that Doc took with me when I studied with him 1964 - 1973. Since I know the mechanics for my physical type very well all I needed to do for my comeback after 21 years away was to take it long and slow ( gave myself 3 months to get the muscle tone back. All the memory was still there! ) and Work consistently. I continue to work a daily 20 minute routine, minimum, that includes a shortened Spiderweb warmup of long Hoooo tones followed by the Pivot Stabilizer right up to High G then the Clarke Studies (#2?) in all keys starting on Low G both slurred and tongued. It works for me!
After I was back about 15 years I stumbled on the Pivot System #2 plastic mpc that, try as I may, was never able to play on back in HS and College. Much to my surprise, I was able to play on it easily! I haven’t looked back!
Paul Del Rossi _________________ Paul
- Trumpet Student of Doc's 1964 to 1973 |
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Now that is a great post, Paul . . . thanks so much for chiming in here!
Interesting that he had you place from South to North . . . he had me do the exact opposite.
I took 1981 through 1994 off of trumpet and spent those years in the trombone section, a rather dismal place to be quite frankly (although I did get to sit in front of great lead trumpet players like Dave Stahl and Lin Biviano). When I came back to trumpet, I eased in very slowly and that truly has been the key: don't expect too much too soon, and when I get better slower, I get better better!
Now that I've been playing my tuba for a full three months, I can honestly say that my chops have never been this good, especially in terms of endurance and ability to get around on the horn, no matter which one I happen to be playing. I have yet to play my first tuba gig, but whenever that happens, I suspect it won't be a moment too late or too soon.
_________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz |
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TrumpetMan17 Regular Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2009 Posts: 24 Location: Lansdowne, PA ( Philly Area )
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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the kind words Rich.
I remember Doc encouraging me and others to double on other instruments, especially on Trombone for Trumpet players. He said that it would strengthen our Trumpet embouchures. I bought a used Trombone to do that. I remember the first few times, in practice sessions, that I went from the Trombone mpc to the Trumpet mpc. It felt like I was blowing into a straw! However, I did notice a decidedly different muscle tone on the Trumpet. It seemed effortless too.
P.S. The south-to-north placement for the IV is due to the bottom lip being the anchor point. Are you a III or a IV? _________________ Paul
- Trumpet Student of Doc's 1964 to 1973
Last edited by TrumpetMan17 on Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:33 am; edited 2 times in total |
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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TrumpetMan17 wrote: | Thanks for the kind words Rich.
I remember Doc encouraging me and others to double on other instruments, especially on Trombone for Trumpet players. He said that it would strengthen our Trumpet embouchures. I bought a used Trombone to do that. I remember the first few times, in practice sessions, that I went from the Trombone mpc to the Trumpet mpc. If felt like I was blowing into a straw! However, I did notice a decidedly different muscle tone on the Trumpet. It seem effortless too.
P.S. The south-to-north placement for the IV is due to the bottom lip being the anchor point. Are you a III or a IV? |
Amen to doubling!
I am a IIIB, apparently for life, not just for now.
_________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz |
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deesson Regular Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2011 Posts: 35 Location: Long Island, NY
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:11 am Post subject: |
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TrumpetMan17,
I am surprised that Doc would have you place south side up. I am also a IV and Doc taught me north side down. He said placing south side up, if the lips were a little dry or whiskers too long, you could push the upper lip out of place.
Just when I thought I knew everything, now this! |
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TrumpetMan17 Regular Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2009 Posts: 24 Location: Lansdowne, PA ( Philly Area )
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:45 am Post subject: |
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deesson wrote: | TrumpetMan17,
I am surprised that Doc would have you place south side up. I am also a IV and Doc taught me north side down. He said placing south side up, if the lips were a little dry or whiskers too long, you could push the upper lip out of place.
Just when I thought I knew everything, now this! |
It has always been my understanding that you place the mpc on the anchor point first and not the control point. For a IV that’s the lower lip and for a III that’s the upper lip. I’ve always found it a very solid feeling to get my jaw into position first, get a buzzing firmness all around my mouth then place with a strong feel on the lower jaw and a softer “feel” on the upper jaw/lip. When I have too much pressure on the upper lip, or place there first, I run the risk of too my pressure on the upper lip and it feels like I’m “banging” it. That’s when it swells on me and I’m really in trouble for the gig! Again, this is all how it feels to me. In actual fact, I’m placing the mpc on both lips at the same time. It’s the weight on the inner embouchure that feels the difference. And, I believe Doc used the N/S, S/N designations to exaggerate for students until they “got it” with the inner embouchure. In fact, when my jaw if fully extended and clinched to the point of the teeth almost touching there is VERY LITTLE movement even on the inner embouchure all the way from low C to double C! One of the beauties of the Type IV. Also, a curse until you learn to control it! _________________ Paul
- Trumpet Student of Doc's 1964 to 1973 |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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So now I'm confused as to setting on (almost) buzzing firmness, vs just touching. Have been for a while, actually.
I fully expect the apparent contradiction is merely a lack of understanding on my part. |
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deesson Regular Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2011 Posts: 35 Location: Long Island, NY
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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buzzing firmness is the start of the just touching embouchure. your lips should be just touching during the placement, during the mouthcorner inhalation, during the playing, at the completion of playing. |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hey, Rich. You know I'm not a Reinhart guy but am enjoying the discussion nonetheless:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krD4hdGvGHM
PS You forgot to mention Danny Stiles |
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BEBumsted New Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2015 Posts: 7
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Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:02 am Post subject: |
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That playing music, including challenging Etudes, is a good variation to just hitting method books; alternate days.
--
Also that performing simple music extremely well, perfectly if possible, is just as satisfying as playing difficult pieces. |
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