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chuck in ny
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 Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:19 pm Post subject: pencil exercise |
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| i have just started this beneficial routine. do you build up to a certain amount of time, and then stay at that level for maintenance, or what is the story. |
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chuck in ny
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:54 am Post subject: |
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into this exercise a bit more and learning not to use the teeth even in an incidental way, and allow the lip aperture to do all the work. it's helpful in this regard to extend the lips slightly forward and this gets past tooth support.
it's quite pleasurable. this is the last aspect of improving the embouchure. i could feel needing a bit more compression in the middle while ascending. |
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trpthrld
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Tim, do you use the PETE? |
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trpthrld
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| trpthrld wrote: | Yes, I do. It's the first thing I do before playing my horn.
Been using one for about 3 years now. Very happy with the results. I like how it focuses purely on setting a good embouchure to start things off with.
I use a regular PETE. I tried a PETE PRO...it didn't do for me what the regular PETE does. |
Thanks for responding. It's interesting to me that you start with the PETE before playing as I had it in my head this was something better to do after playing (or at least, removed from playing). If you wouldn't mind, I would love to hear what your PETE routine involves.
Thanks again. |
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trpthrld
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Fuzzy Dunlop wrote: | | If you wouldn't mind, I would love to hear what your PETE routine involves. |
Pretty simple.
After placing it, I set my corners so that they're firm enough to hold it straight out from the angle setting of my teeth (which for me means a slight down angle).
Once it's in that position, I increase the firmness of my corners until I start to feel a bit of a burn from lactic acid working the muscles. I'll hold for a bit longer then remove it.
And I'm done!
I PETE while doing other things like checking email or playing solitaire. The reason I do other activities while Peteing is to replicate what happens when you play - your chops are set but you're also looking at music, listening to chord changes...whatever - you're doing several things at the same time.
Terry Warburton has a video with recommended exercises for the PETE. I tried them & found that doing what I described works better for me.
Hope this helps!
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Thank you, Tim. I will check it out! |
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trpthrld
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chuck in ny
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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first he causes me to buy a couple of leadpipe swabs, now he causes me to buy a PETE.
sounds like a plan. |
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furcifer
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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+1 for the PETE. I do the one Terry Warburton demonstrates on the video, pulling against the lips, etc, and then also do the "pencil" exercise on the contoured end. It's an isometric exercise, so, I do about 30-45 seconds for each rep. I'll do about 10 to 15 reps - or just hold it there while I'm doing other things.
I focus primarily on placing it at the center of the aperture and tightening up the "saying M" muscles. I don't focus on "tight corners" as much anymore.
I don't combine it too much with actual playing, other than as a "flex/stretch" in my warm up.
I do the concentrated stuff mostly later in the evening/early morning or when I can't actually play. I incorporate the PETE with some of the "yoga" stretches and isometric exercises I learned from Wayne Downey waaay years ago that I've always done (so when the PETE came out, I immediately saw the value of it). I think Wayne has all that in an actual "brass method" now, but I learned it from one of his proteges right after Blue Devils won in '82.
In my current group, I found that 3 out of our 4 leads all use the PETE in some fashion. All of us are 30+ year players.
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trpthrld
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chuck in ny
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:29 am Post subject: |
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coming along now with the PETE on order and up to 2 minutes with the pencil exercise.
this is going in a completely different direction than i had thought. looking at the video endorsements of the PETE, it isn't all about gaining some additional compression in the middle of the embouchure. the lads talk about increased endurance.
endurance is my particular quest with range as an important but subordinate issue. range i feel will come with well directed practice and constant effort. endurance is the real jewel. if you have that it is the key to playing the instrument.
there was favorable pricing on the bay from WWBW, still is, and a silver plated PETE should be coming in next week. it was $1.75 extra to get the brass item over the base model plastic one.
i will of course find out for sure by use but this thing is looking very, very good. terry warburton states that so far nobody has taken him up on the money back guarantee. |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:45 am Post subject: |
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I'm really curious why trumpet players would think that squeezing pencils or other objects between their lips would develop the strength and coordination required to play a trumpet better, faster and more efficiently than correctly practicing flexibility, technical, range, and the other well-known specific types of exercises on a trumpet. This subject for me falls into the category of "things that make me go hmmm..."
Cheers,
John Mohan
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Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
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BeboppinFool
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Why do football players do push-ups?
Why do swimmers do sit-ups?
Why do runners do jumping jacks?
Playing the trumpet is a physical process.
Strengthening all the muscles helps.
Bad instruction hurts.
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trumpet.sanity
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:58 am Post subject: |
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I'm not one on pedal tones, or PETE, or anything other than just playing to develop.
I am in no way discouraging or poo-poo-ing what anybody else has found successful.
Curious, for those of you that use the PETE, have you ever tried this contraption?
http://tce-studio.com/tce/bahbs-store/ |
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furcifer
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| trumpet.sanity wrote: | I'm not one on pedal tones, or PETE, or anything other than just playing to develop.
I am in no way discouraging or poo-poo-ing what anybody else has found successful.
Curious, for those of you that use the PETE, have you ever tried this contraption?
http://tce-studio.com/tce/bahbs-store/ |
I have not tried that, and I probably wouldn't, because I think a few things render it superfluous to my chosen method that has been getting results:
1. Wayne Downey's yoga stuff as used in his "Xtreme Brass" method (or even within the Blue Devils' "System Blue") has been around for decades and the Blue Devils brass awards have proven it time and again with a broad range of players who came to it with equally-broad and different (initial) embouchure types.
2. Wayne endorsed the PETE when it came out; he saw, as I did, that it was a great tool that easily incorporated with and enhanced Wayne Downey's longtime proven methods, which I believe are helpful to EVERY embouchure type, but especially so for the (MF Protocol) type I have converted to.
3. Bob Odneal's Casual Double C method reinforces to some extent what CG, Callet, Pops M. and others (some by omission) have indicated about NOT needing incredible strength or tension from the corners (outside the mouthpiece). As long as "enough" strength is there to anchor the corners, you're good - but the real support provided by the orbicularis oris for the higher range (and increased endurance) happens best when it comes down from the top, and perhaps even more so, up from the bottom - not so much in from the "corners" of the mouth. As Bob O. recommends, "say M" (top and bottom isometrically opposed), not a hard "ew" (where the corners are being pushed forward).
4. Now, from that point, I go with Lynn Nicholson's description of "unfurling" within the mouthpiece, which is not really related to isometric strength. This is where his Xpiece/Reversible-rim and "Mindless Hardware Methodology" system takes over to help (re)train the embouchure type that I'm going for. Wayne Bergeron's personal comments to me prior to adopting Lynn's method also reinforced to me that this is where the "breakthrough" to the next-higher notes that I'm looking for was to be discovered. The 1st PETE exercise also helps reinforce the "unfurling" concept for me.
This is just the nutshell of newer concepts that have been working for me over the last several months - to include a mouthpiece change about 7 weeks ago - since starting on the "comeback trail", just over 2 years ago. I'm about a year into actual steady playing with my current performing group, having just started our 2017 season. The increase in endurance and "natural volume" has been significant, and my *accessible* range is now increasing beyond my 30+ year plateau of "three octaves and a half step" *useful* range, LOL. Such progress is a good indicator of future progress.
_________________
Stomvi S3 Big Bell -2018
Bach 180ST37 -'80
Benge CG -'78
Buescher LP 9 -1926
Getzen 896S-4 flugel -'86
Conn 18H bone -'64
Getzen M2003E Bb/G bugle
Getzen Titleist 2v soprano G -'79
King K-50 G mellophone
Henri Gautier Cornet C/Bb/A -1919 |
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chuck in ny
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | I'm really curious why trumpet players would think that squeezing pencils or other objects between their lips would develop the strength and coordination required to play a trumpet better, faster and more efficiently than correctly practicing flexibility, technical, range, and the other well-known specific types of exercises on a trumpet. This subject for me falls into the category of "things that make me go hmmm..."
Cheers,
John Mohan |
i am curious why the Claude Gordon camp thinks they have a lock on knowledge when Claude was open minded and encouraged everyone to go beyond his teachings.
in the years Claude has been gone, where is the accumulated 'gone beyond' material that his students have agreed on and put together for the benefit of all? or are you all banking on a closed shop system where the limited few who took lessons from the man, have this enhanced cachet for the benefit of your wallets.
it's not for me to say, it's for you to live up to Claude's memory and standards. what is for me is to be fearless enough to spend the thirty-four and find out one of two possibilities. it either blows up in my face, or winds up being as beneficial as the forum owner states. it's worth the risk.
i practice Claude Gordon material from Bill Knevitt's books, but am receptive to anything that helps trumpet playing. this includes some wonderful embouchure help from Clint McLaughlin, that was really not necessary because all you have to do is practice the Gordon material. i guess the lesson Eric Bolvin took with Clint was against dogma and not really necessary either.
when Pops takes a lesson from Eric Bolvin, i'll take it all back. |
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dstdenis
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| chuck in ny wrote: | | endurance is the real jewel. if you have that it is the key to playing the instrument. |
This reminds me of that story in the Herbert L. Clarke autobiography where he invited a colleague over to hear him play some difficult piece. When Clarke finished, the guy said something like, well, you finished without fatigue, but you made lots of mistakes.
Clarke had expected praise and was disappointed by the criticism. But he realized the guy was right, so Clarke started focusing on accuracy, with no tolerance for errors. He became less interested in the quantity of pages he played during practice and more interested in the quality of his playing. He also started practicing softly so he could practice longer in pursuit of accuracy. He credits these changes for helping him jump to the next level.
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| chuck in ny wrote: | | John Mohan wrote: | I'm really curious why trumpet players would think that squeezing pencils or other objects between their lips would develop the strength and coordination required to play a trumpet better, faster and more efficiently than correctly practicing flexibility, technical, range, and the other well-known specific types of exercises on a trumpet. This subject for me falls into the category of "things that make me go hmmm..."
Cheers,
John Mohan |
i am curious why the Claude Gordon camp thinks they have a lock on knowledge when Claude was open minded and encouraged everyone to go beyond his teachings.
in the years Claude has been gone, where is the accumulated 'gone beyond' material that his students have agreed on and put together for the benefit of all? or are you all banking on a closed shop system where the limited few who took lessons from the man, have this enhanced cachet for the benefit of your wallets.
it's not for me to say, it's for you to live up to Claude's memory and standards. what is for me is to be fearless enough to spend the thirty-four and find out one of two possibilities. it either blows up in my face, or winds up being as beneficial as the forum owner states. it's worth the risk.
i practice Claude Gordon material from Bill Knevitt's books, but am receptive to anything that helps trumpet playing. this includes some wonderful embouchure help from Clint McLaughlin, that was really not necessary because all you have to do is practice the Gordon material. i guess the lesson Eric Bolvin took with Clint was against dogma and not really necessary either.
when Pops takes a lesson from Eric Bolvin, i'll take it all back. |
I just shared the fact that I'm curious why some players think pencil squeezing is a good idea. And yes, my "hmmm" comment implicitly gives my opinion of spending one's time squeezing a pencil instead of practicing a trumpet, but I find your response, complete with musings about a "closed shop system", wallet enhancements, etc. to be quite a reaction.
One other thing: Claude was open minded and sought to learn all he could about brass playing. When Clarke died, he went on to study with Louis Maggio for several years. He also took part in and also created research studies (the John Haynie Fluoroscopic Study, and also his own Fluoroscopic Study with Dr. Larry Miller) to advance the fund of knowledge.
But he had a very definite opinion about such things as "No Pressure Systems", "Lip Buzzing Exercises", exercises where one leans against a wall with a broomstick against their abdomen to "build up the diaphragm muscle" and last but not least, the idea that squeezing a pencil between ones lips would be beneficial to trumpet playing. That opinion was quite strong and never changed. So it is a bit ironic for you to call us Gordon students out for not being more "open minded" about something that in reality would have disappointed Claude greatly if he was to have found out we were advocating it.
I do not mean to offend you. By all means, if you think you are benefiting from pencil squeezing I wish you well. In the meantime, I'll be practicing my Clarkes, Flexibilities and Range studies (and maybe even some music once in a while!). 
Best wishes,
John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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