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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
The Part One exercises in Systematic Approach are not considered to be "Long Tone Exercises" because they are not played in the way typical long tone exercises are played.

What do you consider the "typical" way long tones are played? I've been having a debate on this point in another thread.


Great question - thanks for it. In my experience with other teachers in my youth, there were several variations of long tones.

One was to play a note for a set period of time (usually 8 beats or 16 beats). One variation of this was what was called "8-8-16" exercises. One started on a middle G and held it eight beats, slurred down to the F# for eight beats, than back to the G with a sixteen beat sustain on it. Then the same a half step down, followed by an expansion type progression (starting the next one on G#, then the next one on F, then A, etc).

The other type of Long Tone exercise I used to be assigned was to hold notes very quietly so as to be able to sustain them for as long as I could (sometimes up to a minute each). This is not how the SA Part One exercises are to be played. The point with them is to play in a full, comfortable volume, get the air out, then try to crescendo the note as one runs out of air to really work the blowing muscles (until they literally shake with the effort).

Robert P wrote:
The notion that CG didn't believe in long tones struck me as odd - when I was first told about SATDP back in high school it was by someone who was working on it and their take on it was that a large part of it was *about* long tones and pedal tones. I.e. my introduction to the notion of doing long tones to increase range, power and endurance was SATDP. Page after page of being directed to hold out notes as long as physically possible and then some. That's largely why it takes so much time, because you're doing these endless, protracted "hold it as long as possible" exercises with lots of rest in between. Whether it's on the last note or on each note like in Lesson 1, how is this not "long tones"?


Claude himself said over and over in Lessons and when giving Clinics that typical long tone exercises were a waste of time. Note that he did not (and I do not) consider the Systematic Approach Part One exercises to be "typical" Long Tone exercises. When playing them, the point is not to see how long you can hold the note (by playing real softly and looking at your watch), nor is the point to hold the note a specific amount of time. From Page 19 of Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing:


https://s25.postimg.org/edj8qkc3z/BPINHTDB_19_CU.jpg

In particular:


https://s25.postimg.org/un9etgmrz/BPINHTDB_19_ECU.jpg

I'm putting the following in bold because it is important: The point in the SA Part One exercises is to sustain the note in a full, comfortable volume until all the air is nearly gone, and then try to crescendo the note in order to really squeeze and work the blowing muscles to develop them to be extremely strong. As a side benefit, because one is doing this when down in the Pedal Range where total relaxation of the back of the tongue and soft palate must occur to allow the relaxed airflow needed for the pedal note to sound, as one sustains each pedal note and really squeezes and blows at the end, all the while staying totally relaxed up top (ie not "closing off the throat" or "choking off the air"), one learns to be able to blow with full force all the while staying totally relaxed up top. This is very helpful to prevent the phenomena from occurring that so many suffer from - the feeling of "choking off the sound" by straining and grunting when trying to play the highest notes. Learning to be able to blow as hard as one can all the while keeping the uninvolved muscles of the back of the throat and soft palate relaxed, is vital. The SA Pedal Note exercises develop blowing strength and help build the habit of being able to blow hard with the involved muscles while keeping the uninvolved muscles relaxed and out of the way of the airstream.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read somewhere that Bill Chase was a big fan of long tones for deveoping range. The term "long tones" in this context was not defined, however.

Steve
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoMQJf5vKI
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, but the horse in this thread was beaten to death by posters, with the exception of John Mohan, that no one has ever heard of professionally.

The opinions concerning the value of long tones were mostly offered by players whose abilities and experience levels are unknown, at least to me, and therefore not that helpful IMHO.

Bill Chase was a world-class player, and his thoughts on the subject seemed to me to be of more value.

But enough...

Steve
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furcifer
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I'm getting from all this:

-There's a difference between what we think of as "long tones" and what might be better described as "long-enough" tones, LOL

-The CG method's use described here by John Mohan to develop the "blowing" muscles is particularly instructive, (which I find runs happily contrary to a certain other low brass professor's insistence that all brass playing is the same, and that there is no way to appreciably increase one's strength or capacity to "blow" - even though he could never play above the staff on trumpet if his life depended on it).

-The Cat Anderson (or even Bob Odneal's method) of starting out on a middle G to reinforce a concept and establish a baseline for what is coming next in their respective methods seem to align well with

Mohan's initial and perhaps best basic point that long tones "better be doing something other than just holding a note for a long time."

To that end, I have noted other particular applications, over the years, for playing notes anywhere from middle G down to pedal tones for an extended length of time, i.e., a full breath, etc.:

1. To help reform a deformed aperture that is causing "double-buzz" issues that can come up due to a number of causes, from going a long period without playing to a mouthpiece change to even changes in the weather.

2. To help establish a baseline for playing in the higher range and get the feeling of "unfurling" that Lynn Nicholson refers to, as opposed to hitting the finite limit of "rolling in" the lips to get higher pitches.

3. To get young students with the attention span of a corgi to actually LISTEN to their own freekin' sound for a BLESSED MINUTE at least ONCE in their lives, LOL! Although I agree with a prior poster that quickly moving on to Schlossberg to serve this purpose more efficiently in the actual daily routine is appropriate.

And to the above poster, no, I'm not going to include my resume. If what I post makes sense and is useful to you, you're welcome. Otherwise, scroll on. Forums are a medium designed to attack the proverbial horse from as many perspectives as possible, regardless of which one any given person may regard as the official coup de grace.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winghorn wrote:
Yeah, but the horse in this thread was beaten to death by posters, with the exception of John Mohan, that no one has ever heard of professionally.

The opinions concerning the value of long tones were mostly offered by players whose abilities and experience levels are unknown, at least to me, and therefore not that helpful IMHO.

Bill Chase was a world-class player, and his thoughts on the subject seemed to me to be of more value.

But enough...

Steve


Thanks Steve,

I want to point out that there are others posting here that have professional experience. Roger Wood is an L.A. freelance player and a good, solid one (the only thing about him I question is his choosing to publicize his telephone number in this thread - is it really your number Roger?!?!). trumpet.sanity who remains anonymous, is, in my opinion, based on some of what he's written, another pro and probably a good one (I could be wrong, but I don't think I am). Russel doesn't make a full-time living playing but he has done massive amounts of practicing, playing and studying everything and all about the instrument and knows his stuff. I'm not going to mention everyone that has contributed here, but I think everyone has made good, educated points in this thread. (But only I am 100% right about everything of course).
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beating the dead horse, was only meant to imply all points and stances seem to have been covered.

Some guys think they are beneficial, and explained why
Some guys think they are not beneficial and explained why

Claude Gordon's implied long tones, are really just long holds at the end of passages or exercises, not the long tones discussed from other posters and pedagogy

I think I've read maybe 5 or 6 threads here with the same info. And the same posters. Arguing about the same stuff. Hence the dead horse, continued to be beaten.
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the information, John.

I meant no offense to any posters. I mean, nobody knows anything about me, either.

Steve
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shofar
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:41 pm    Post subject: Long Tones Reply with quote

Hey John, thanks for the props.

I tend to always put my ph # (yes it is my real ph #) on most everything I write or post. I guess I would ask, John why do you question me posting my #? Just curious.

My original thinking was because there seemed at one time, maybe there still is, a few people trolling around here with multiple alias', and people on here need to be for real. Just want people to know I'm for real. And they can call me and check if they so desire.

I think this is an interesting thread. Even though I was fortunate to study with Claude near the end of his teaching (life - only 9 months) and learned a great deal, and with Jimmy Stamp back in the 70's for a few years, I come primarily from the school of Long Tones being the first part of your routine played every day.

That being from my main teacher, Ralph Scaffidi. Some of you know who Ralph was, some do not. No matter. Great player and teacher, as evidence by his career. But he really did advocate Long Tones, in the sense of holding an individual note as long as you could. Eventually, as we continued the Long Tones, we would, as some have referred to here, hold each note as soft as possible, as long as possible, striving for 1 minute or more. It made a noticeable difference in my playing, and all those that know studied with Ralph.

Ok, enough rambling. Talk at you guys soon,

Roger Wood
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HornnOOb
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe there is more to playing long tones than building endurance (which it does). Staying on one note as long as you are able, allows the ear, brain and chops to dial into the tone quality that pleases us as individuals. When we listen to recorded trumpet and we hear a tone quality we like and perhaps aspire to, playing long tones, listening and adjusting, even if just subliminally, gets us closer and closer to what we're attempting to achieve. I believe staying on one note and not diverting brain power to playing a line of music, helps to focus our mental resources on the task of finding our sound quality destination. For me endurance gained from playing long tones is a bonus.

Long tones have been a very important component to my playing development.
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illegalbugler
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it is worth, the original accompanying text to Clarke's Technical Studies Sixth Study says the following:
Quote:
Perhaps you will now realize that much more benefit may be derived by playing these Exercises in one breath, than by holding long tones. You are gaining at the same time, Endurance, Technic, Elasticity of the Lips, and the knack of reading music rapidly.

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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started this thread in the CG forum to find out how practicing long tones fits into the CG SATDP. I got more than I bargained for.

I thought that this was one of the better threads I've been following. I appreciate all of the good posts.

My conclusion is that long tones are not a part of the Claude Gordon Systematic Approach to Daily Practice.

I understand that some people benefit from practicing long tones. For me, I find that I am progressing quite well following CG's lesson plans. As those lessons are about all I have time for, in order to add practice on long tones, I would have to short change some aspect of the lessons in SATDP. I think that changing my practice routine to accommodate practice of long tones would not contribute to the accomplishment of my goals. I think that they would be a less efficient use of practice time.

I can see that a more advance player, one who had mastered Clarks Technical Studies, Arbans, etc., might find long tones useful. Personally, I am a long way from mastering the basics and I think that I am better off trying to do that.

As Stan Laurel once remarked, "That's my story and I'm stuck with it".

Warm regards to all,
Grits
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofar wrote:
Hey John, thanks for the props.

I tend to always put my ph # (yes it is my real ph #) on most everything I write or post. I guess I would ask, John why do you question me posting my #? Just curious.


You're welcome.

For me it's not so much the worry of insane trumpet players making crank calls, but I am concerned about web spiders that crawl pages picking up e-mail addresses and phone numbers. I already get robocalls from marketers and scammers every day, even though my numbers have been on the Do Not Call Registry for years and years - I don't want the number of those unwanted calls to increase.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

illegalbugler wrote:
For what it is worth, the original accompanying text to Clarke's Technical Studies Sixth Study says the following:
Quote:
Perhaps you will now realize that much more benefit may be derived by playing these Exercises in one breath, than by holding long tones. You are gaining at the same time, Endurance, Technic, Elasticity of the Lips, and the knack of reading music rapidly.


Very good point! I should have thought to include the above. For the record though, I'm going to put the original quote with Clarke's actual words down below. Unfortunately all of the text explanations in the current Carl Fischer edition of Technical Studies for the Cornet were changed without notice by an unnamed reviser. As Clarke's grandstudent (his student's student ) I take great issue with that. While the quote above does still accurately communicate what Clarke wrote, in other instances in the book the original meanings are distorted or even completely lost. I recommend buying the David Hickman compilation of all four of Herbert L. Clarke's music books as Clarke's original prose is maintained in them. Available at the bottom of the following webpage as a physical book or a PDF download:

http://www.hickmanmusiceditions.com/select2.asp?page=6&selection=36

The original instructions for the Sixth Study in Technical Studies for the Cornet:

Herbert L. Clarke wrote:
Perhaps now you will realize that much more benefit is derived from playing these exercises in one breath than by holding long tones. At the same time endurance, technic, elasticity of the lips and the knack of reading music rapidly, is gained.


As I wrote, in this case the change in text is fairly subtle and the meaning not changed. But still, why change it at all?!

Best wishes,

John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Quote:
Perhaps you will now realize that much more benefit may be derived by playing these Exercises in one breath, than by holding long tones. You are gaining at the same time, Endurance, Technic, Elasticity of the Lips, and the knack of reading music rapidly.


The original instructions for the Sixth Study in Technical Studies for the Cornet:

Herbert L. Clarke wrote:
Perhaps now you will realize that much more benefit is derived from playing these exercises in one breath than by holding long tones. At the same time endurance, technic, elasticity of the lips and the knack of reading music rapidly, is gained.


As I wrote, in this case the change in text is fairly subtle and the meaning not changed. But still, why change it at all?

Looks like editorial changes. I deal with editors at work, and they like to make changes like that for style and grammar reasons (e.g., syntax, active voice instead of passive voice, number agreement with verbs, etc.).

It's interesting that my copy from my high school days has something similar to the original HLC version, while another copy I bought a few years ago has yet another version of this text:
Quote:
You will begin to realize that your technique, endurance, and music reading facility will improve far more by playing these exercises than by simply playing long tones.

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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They have to change it slightly so they can copyright it again.
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shofar
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me it's not so much the worry of insane trumpet players making crank calls, but I am concerned about web spiders that crawl pages picking up e-mail addresses and phone numbers. I already get robocalls from marketers and scammers every day, even though my numbers have been on the Do Not Call Registry for years and years - I don't want the number of those unwanted calls to increase.[/quote]


Point well taken. So many crazies on line now days. So, because of that, I will cease to include my ph #.

This continues to be a good discussion. And by the way John (and everyone else) I tend to follow about 80% of what I got from Claude, although I do continue to do long tones i.e.; 1 note as soft as possible for as long as possible. But I don't play them above High C.

I have come to realize that I don't need to play them, or in general most any other part of my routine, above that and my range, stamina and sound continue to improve (and I'm an old guy...LOL!!).

By the way, I also give private lessons via Skype or FaceTime.

Talk at y'all soon,

Roger Wood
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, John and Roger, between the two of you, with whom should I begin my Skype lessons?

Regards,

Steve
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illegalbugler
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
illegalbugler wrote:
For what it is worth, the original accompanying text to Clarke's Technical Studies Sixth Study says the following:
Quote:
Perhaps you will now realize that much more benefit may be derived by playing these Exercises in one breath, than by holding long tones. You are gaining at the same time, Endurance, Technic, Elasticity of the Lips, and the knack of reading music rapidly.


Very good point! I should have thought to include the above. For the record though, I'm going to put the original quote with Clarke's actual words down below. Unfortunately all of the text explanations in the current Carl Fischer edition of Technical Studies for the Cornet were changed without notice by an unnamed reviser. As Clarke's grandstudent (his student's student ) I take great issue with that. While the quote above does still accurately communicate what Clarke wrote, in other instances in the book the original meanings are distorted or even completely lost. I recommend buying the David Hickman compilation of all four of Herbert L. Clarke's music books as Clarke's original prose is maintained in them. Available at the bottom of the following webpage as a physical book or a PDF download:

http://www.hickmanmusiceditions.com/select2.asp?page=6&selection=36

The original instructions for the Sixth Study in Technical Studies for the Cornet:

Herbert L. Clarke wrote:
Perhaps now you will realize that much more benefit is derived from playing these exercises in one breath than by holding long tones. At the same time endurance, technic, elasticity of the lips and the knack of reading music rapidly, is gained.


As I wrote, in this case the change in text is fairly subtle and the meaning not changed. But still, why change it at all?!

Best wishes,

John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested


I pulled that quote, with the odd Capitalization, from a version that has the 1912 copyright notice but does mention his "Third Series" (Characteristic Studies) and has a 1915 copyright for that.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

illegalbugler wrote:
I pulled that quote, with the odd Capitalization, from a version that has the 1912 copyright notice but does mention his "Third Series" (Characteristic Studies) and has a 1915 copyright for that.


That's really interesting. So there are (at least) two revisions of Clarke's wording. I am wondering specifically which edition you have. According to Jeff Purtle's info on the following webpage, what I quoted is from the original book (and also appeared in the older Carl Fischer edition with the blue cover).

https://www.purtle.com/clarkes-technical-studies-then-and-now-jeff-purtle

Here is the book Jeff quotes from:



What does the cover of your book look like?
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