Kanstul copies ?

[Eddie Jeffries]

I can understand how Kanstul and other companies can make a customer a copy of another company's mouthpiece.

But how can Kanstul legally make entire lines of copies of Wick, Warburton, etc that are even named after the other conpanies?
"Kanstul Wick"
"Kanstul Warburton"

Why haven't Wick, Warburton, etc sued Kanstul?

Or has Kanstul carefully worded the names of the lines to avoid copyright infringement?
Such as "Kanstul W" (wink-wink)

Just curious.

.
_________________
eddiejeffries@hotmail.com

.

[trickg]

Is it possible that Kanstul pays Wick, Warburton, etc a portion for every mouthpiece they sell?
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[trumpet.sanity]

I bet it has more to do with trademarks and patents, or lack there of.

For instance they make Monette copies, I doubt that Dave would agree to any deal for somebody makeing a pand selling a copy of his stuff.

[Vin DiBona]

There are no patents on mouthpieces. Only GR has something on the lower part of their mouthpieces that cannot be duplicated by anyone.
Perhaps Brian Scriver can shed more light on exactly what cannot be replicated on a GR piece.
Kanstul copies of Monette mouthpieces are nothing like the real ones.
R. Tomasek

[Andy Cooper]

Trade mark problems would only happen if Kanstul made a copy of a Bach 3C top and stamped the Bach name on it. Trademarks are good "forever" as long as they are defended against unauthorized use. At one time Aspirin was a trademarked name. A musical instrument example would be the use of "Silvertone" by Sears and Roebuck contested by HN White King.

Kanstul, would not of course mass produce the Wedge rim or Asymmetric rim - those are recent patents usually good for 14 to 20 years if fees are paid. Kanstul is however free to make copies of any brand of mouthpiece that does not have a current patent.

The Neill Sanders rim was patented - but the patent is expired and now an approximate copy of it is used in the Hickman rim.

A mouthpiece or instrument maker could perhaps get a design patent, preventing competition from duplication some ornamentation like Marcinkiewicz's external mouthpiece design.

https://www.marcinkiewicz.com/img/patents/concert-hall-patent.jpg

[Eddie Jeffries]

[GordonH]

I think there are two issues here, or there would be under UK patent and trademark law.

1. 'prior art' - if it is heavily based on a previous design then it can't be easily patented. It would not be novel enough. I suspect that rules out any mouthpiece design being patentable.

2. Necessity of design - there was a case where Remington made a rotary shaver that looked and functioned like a Phillips. Phillips went to court, but lost as it was ruled that there was a necessity of design and that due to the shape of the face and the function required any rotary shaver would end up looking similar.

I do not know how US patent law compares to this.

I have done quite a lot of trade mark registration work here (using patent attorneys). We can't trade mark words, they have to have a graphical element. You also can't trademark generic words or phrases here. You can only trademark in specific categories, not in a blanket way. As soon as you apply for a trademark all these monitoring companies come out of the woodwork claiming infringement because they have a similar trademark in a different class. It gets very messy and very expensive. There is a lot of unused IP out there that companies keep as a money making sideline. For example, I was told one company would back down from a dispute for a fee of £100,000. It is the sort of thing that goes on.

I think these mouthpieces are what would be considered 'homages'. They can't be identical as they are not made with the same tooling. Like watch homages to things like the rolex submariner. Not fakes, but closely resembling and not claiming to be originals.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[Andy Cooper]

[dstdenis]

It might help to clear up the terminology:

Trademark is used with a product, service or organization mark and logo within an industry classification. Trademark protection can be registered and renewed indefinitely as long as the owner continues to use the mark, files for renewal, and defends against infringement.

Copyright gives the creator of a piece of intellectual property (book, movie, song,...) exclusive rights to use and distribution. Copyright protection can be renewed in some countries but eventually expires after a period of time when the work goes into the public domain.

Patent is legal protection for an invention for a short period of time, such as 20 years. It gives the inventor a brief monopoly to recoup their initial expenses, which encourages invention and innovation.

So for trumpet mouthpieces, copyright protection is not available.

Trademark protection could be available for the name of a mouthpiece design, especially if it were registered and kept in force. (This is why Harmon mutes not made by the Harmon company are given generic names, like "wah wah" mutes. Others can make an identical mute, but they can't call it a Harmon mute.)

A patent might be granted for a unique new mouthpiece invention, and the patent would prevent competitors from making imitations, but the patent would expire after a while.
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi

[John Mohan]

This all reminds me of something that happened in the past. After Claude Gordon passed away, Patty Gordon told me Zig Kanstul refused to share in the profits of the CG 3, CG Personal trumpet and CG Personal flugelhorn mouthpieces he was selling. When she complained about this, his response was, "Well, CG could stand for anything." Not one of his finer moments...

[JazzFluegel]

[Andy Cooper]