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bassguy
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 Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| chuck in ny wrote: | | flip oakes makes flugelhorn mouthpieces with the yamaha, 'large morse taper', shank. call him up and ask for one. he makes huge diameters as well. his 'extreme' mouthpiece sounds really fine on a flugel, it's like velvet. |
Because I was playing a Bach 1 (at a whopping 17.5mm, & I was doing well) at the time I quit & decided there were other things I wanted to do) I assumed the biggest mouthpiece would be best. Surprisingly, the Dennis Wicks 4FL (@ only16.5mm) did hamper my flexibility & range. The 4 FL is slightly deeper than the Wild Thing but it's throat is narrower. The Extreme Wild Thing is 1.25" deep with a commensurately wider throat. Given that this Wicks gave me a sound that's a bit too dark (that's encouraging that I have some control over that parameter) I think maybe a bigger mouthpiece would be counterproductive. That tends to rule out FO.
It's time to consider a Curry at .890" deep? In theory if the Wicks is a little dark the Curry should be just rigjt. The thing is that with that Holton 7C I can easily slur from low c to high c using the same aperture size (virtually) without much facial movement. I can't do that with any of the flugelhorn mouthpieces. With the FH mouthpieces I feel the urge to readjust the aperture. I also have a hard time keeping the pressure of my teeth, & that's not a problem with the Holton trumpet--though the sound is darn lean & beamy.
If I get something comparable in a Curry it would be an 8.5 (16.23mm) or 7 (16.5mm) but with the extra depth it might require something smaller like a 10.5 (15.9mm).
I suspect in time I will get stronger but I'm 60 now, & I want to be performing in 3-4 light jazz or Bossa Nova stuff in the group I play bass guitar by Summer |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:14 am Post subject: |
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Hi bassguy
I'm very sorry to hear the 4FL didn't work out.
My advice would be to stick to the same rim on trumpet and flugel to make switching easier.
Since you are getting on well with the Holton 7C trumpet mouthpiece, and want to go to a smaller flugel diameter for flugel than the Bach 1 diameter you previously played, I suggest going for around a 7 diameter.
Although there are of course other options, I'd suggest going with Curry, as all the cups in a particular diameter have the same rim.
I'd suggest the Curry 7C for trumpet, and probably the middle flugel horn option, the 7CFL.
I feel that sticking to a consistent rim and using middle of the road equipment, will allow you to achieve your playing goals sooner.
Best wishes
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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bassguy
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Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | Hi bassguy
I'm very sorry to hear the 4FL didn't work out.
My advice would be to stick to the same rim on trumpet and flugel to make switching easier.
Since you are getting on well with the Holton 7C trumpet mouthpiece, and want to go to a smaller flugel diameter for flugel than the Bach 1 diameter you previously played, I suggest going for around a 7 diameter.
Although there are of course other options, I'd suggest going with Curry, as all the cups in a particular diameter have the same rim.
I'd suggest the Curry 7C for trumpet, and probably the middle flugel horn option, the 7CFL.
I feel that sticking to a consistent rim and using middle of the road equipment, will allow you to achieve your playing goals sooner.
Best wishes
Lou |
I think that what started my search for a mouthpiece is that I want a significantly darker sound than the stock #3 mouthpiece I got with the Hawk Flugelhorn. That mouthpiece is quite deep, at least .66", but it's too bright & "trumpety".. That's why I am gravitating towards a deep .895' Curry. The mediums are .75", substantially deeper than any trumpet mouthpiece. A similar size (compared to the Holton, which may have a slightly wider inner rim than a Bach 7C) would still have a large enough total volume that my flexibility and range will suffer. That's why I am trying out a 10.5FLD, 8.5FLD, 7FLD & 7 FL & that experiment should yield some insight. I am getting close as my options have diminished. Either I can have adequate range & flexibility with a dark sound or not. |
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zaferis
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Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 2322
Location: Beavercreek, OH
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:08 am Post subject: |
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lots of good stuff going on here.. I'm going to jump in with a different source and ideas.. I do agree with the statements regarding the mouthpiece, instrument and player having a relationship - change one and change them all.
I will add that the "Logical" next step doesn't necessarliy produce the expected results, quite often not.
Bob Love at Brasswind Research has worked this line from the idea (from my limitted knowledge) that the inside volume of the mouthpiece stays the same. So, if you change the depth of cup, you also change the backbore shape and length.. in this way you can change the depth of cup quite drastically without have to adjust the tuning slide and interestingly not killing the pitch relationships of the instrument.
http://brasswindresearch.com/HOME.html
With his screw on rim design you can migrate the rim as you like..
He's located in Dayton OH, but I've seen him at a couple of the conferences (ITG) definitely worth some time playing.
--Bob is easy to work with and I do know several fine players that are successfully using his equipment. IMO not the fly-by-night manufacturer with some crazy idea (which, honestly, was MY first thought) 
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Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| bassguy wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | Hi bassguy
I'm very sorry to hear the 4FL didn't work out.
My advice would be to stick to the same rim on trumpet and flugel to make switching easier.
Since you are getting on well with the Holton 7C trumpet mouthpiece, and want to go to a smaller flugel diameter for flugel than the Bach 1 diameter you previously played, I suggest going for around a 7 diameter.
Although there are of course other options, I'd suggest going with Curry, as all the cups in a particular diameter have the same rim.
I'd suggest the Curry 7C for trumpet, and probably the middle flugel horn option, the 7CFL.
I feel that sticking to a consistent rim and using middle of the road equipment, will allow you to achieve your playing goals sooner.
Best wishes
Lou |
I think that what started my search for a mouthpiece is that I want a significantly darker sound than the stock #3 mouthpiece I got with the Hawk Flugelhorn. That mouthpiece is quite deep, at least .66", but it's too bright & "trumpety".. That's why I am gravitating towards a deep .895' Curry. The mediums are .75", substantially deeper than any trumpet mouthpiece. A similar size (compared to the Holton, which may have a slightly wider inner rim than a Bach 7C) would still have a large enough total volume that my flexibility and range will suffer. That's why I am trying out a 10.5FLD, 8.5FLD, 7FLD & 7 FL & that experiment should yield some insight.
Hi bassguy
Yes, hopefully this experiment will yield some insight. I agree with your choices, although even if the smaller cup diameter compensates for the deeper cup by reducing the overall cup volume, you will still be left with the issue of switching diameter between trumpet and flugel, unless you decide to also switch to the smaller cup diameter on trumpet, which would make sense. Or am I getting confused and you are only borrowing a trumpet for a short while, rather than planning to double long term on trumpet and flugel?
I am getting close as my options have diminished. Either I can have adequate range & flexibility with a dark sound or not.
I personally have never equated flexibility with cup depth/volume although I of course could be wrong, rather to me flexibility is more related to rim width, rim contour and cup diameter.
Regarding adequate range, I think that it may very well come with time, especially considering your relatively short time back on the horn. I think that the problem with experimenting before you fully have your range and endurance back, is knowing quite what will be achievable. If I was in your shoes, I would go with the Curry 7FL (medium cup diameter and the medium of the three flugel cups) and once I had my range and endurance back, if I wanted a darker sound, I would experiment with firstly the Curry 7FLD then if that wasn't dark enough, probably the Flip Oakes models in the 7 diameter.
I wouldn't switch diameter unless I thought that the 7 was a poor fit.
Anyway, that is how I would go about it.
I hope that this will be of some use.
Take Care
Lou
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_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | bassguy wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | Hi buy
I'm very sorry to hear the 4FL didn't work out.
My advice would be to stick to the same rim on trumpet and flugel to make switching easier.
Since you are getting on well with the Holton 7C trumpet mouthpiece, and want to go to a smaller flugel diameter for flugel than the Bach 1 diameter you previously played, I suggest going for around a 7 diameter.
Although there are of course other options, I'd suggest going with Curry, as all the cups in a particular diameter have the same rim.
I'd suggest the Curry 7C for trumpet, and probably the middle flugel horn option, the 7CFL.
I feel that sticking to a consistent rim and using middle of the road equipment, will allow you to achieve your playing goals sooner.
Best wishes
Lou |
I think that what started my search for a mouthpiece is that I want a significantly darker sound than the stock #3 mouthpiece I got with the Hawk Flugelhorn. That mouthpiece is quite deep, at least .66", but it's too bright & "trumpety".. That's why I am gravitating towards a deep .895' Curry. The mediums are .75", substantially deeper than any trumpet mouthpiece. A similar size (compared to the Holton, which may have a slightly wider inner rim than a Bach 7C) would still have a large enough total volume that my flexibility and range will suffer. That's why I am trying out a 10.5FLD, 8.5FLD, 7FLD & 7 FL & that experiment should yield some insight.
Hi bassguy
Yes, hopefully this experiment will yield some insight. I agree with your choices, although even if the smaller cup diameter compensates for the deeper cup by reducing the overall cup volume, you will still be left with the issue of switching diameter between trumpet and flugel, unless you decide to also switch to the smaller cup diameter on trumpet, which would make sense. Or am I getting confused and you are only borrowing a trumpet for a short while, rather than planning to double long term on trumpet and flugel?
I am getting close as my options have diminished. Either I can have adequate range & flexibility with a dark sound or not.
I personally have never equated flexibility with cup depth/volume although I of course could be wrong, rather to me flexibility is more related to rim width, rim contour and cup diameter.
Regarding adequate range, I think that it may very well come with time, especially considering your relatively short time back on the horn. I think that the problem with experimenting before you fully have your range and endurance back, is knowing quite what will be achievable. If I was in your shoes, I would go with the Curry 7FL (medium cup diameter and the medium of the three flugel cups) and once I had my range and endurance back, if I wanted a darker sound, I would experiment with firstly the Curry 7FLD then if that wasn't dark enough, probably the Flip Oakes models in the 7 diameter.
I wouldn't switch diameter unless I thought that the 7 was a poor fit.
Anyway, that is how I would go about it.
I hope that this will be of some use.
Take Care
Lou
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Actually I think you have misunderstood. I am borrowing the trumpet & have no affinity for it whatsoever. Largely why I quit. After finding that great university teacher who compiled those daily drills that help the embouchure migrate to its optimal position my playing got pretty good again. If I really liked the trumpet I would have continued.
As a matter of fact, my first trumpet hero was Harry James, but after hearing Clark Terry I really favored a flugelhorn & wanted to play it, making the trumpet ancillary at best. My first instrument was a student model Lesson that was adequate. I one a local talent show at age 13 playing slightly jazzed up versions of pop tunes. I was, in effect, doing the Chuck Mangiione thing with a cornet & I wanted to upgrade to a flugelhorn. My parents were proud & enthusiastic enough to reward me by purchasing a $100 Cuesnon (1970) but the music store owner told my father if I brought my flugelhorn to Berklee school of Music, I'd get laughed out of the institution. The punch line is that I wasn't in HS yet, & had 4 years to decide what trumpet to buy (if any). I didnt get a flugelhorn. That day I came home with a silver $275 Olds trumpet w/an alligator case that I didn't want or need. The sound was bright, lean & brittle. To complicate matters my parents sent me to a very reputable local teacher (a trombonist) who told my father I was one of the most talented kids he had seen. First item on his agenda? To get rid of that 'piece 'o crap' Olds trumpet & sell me a Bach Stradivarius trumpet. Yes, he talked my parents into it & he sold it as an agent for his former teacher, John Coffey, who played with the Boston Symphony & owned a music store. I am sure my teacher made a small commission on the $325 deal. This was the same guy who insisted on making those embouchure changes that set me back years. (Had I been able to pull my own strings I would have eventually bought a Holton Maynard Ferguson model trumpet--as I HATED the Bach trumpet.) At that point I did develop an aversion to the brightness of the trumpet & often wished that I played keyboard or sax. At that time I just picked up an electric bass guitar & demonstrated some aptitude--& that became a guilty pleasure because I was stagnant on the trumpet after the embouchure change. (I quit bass, recently took it up & now gigging is my principal source of income).
Sorry for going so far into detail. The point is that I like the trumpet in the context of hard core Mahler, Sibelius & Shostakovich symphonies, but I don't want to play it. I also like the tendency of American orchestras using German style trumpets for Bruckner, Brahms, Wagner etc. As a jazz listener there are some trumpet players who impress me, such as Sandoval. However I am still put off by brightness. Listen to Woody Shaw play the Woody Woodpecker song & you'll see what I mean. The flugelhorn is smoother & more forgiving, & even when you hear clams it sounds kinda jazzy. So that Holton trumpet is being returned tomorrow! |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| bassguy wrote: |
Actually I think you have misunderstood.
Hi bassguy
I am borrowing the trumpet & have no affinity for it whatsoever. Largely why I quit. After finding that great university teacher who compiled those daily drills that help the embouchure migrate to its optimal position my playing got pretty good again. If I really liked the trumpet I would have continued.
As a matter of fact, my first trumpet hero was Harry James, but after hearing Clark Terry I really favored a flugelhorn & wanted to play it, making the trumpet ancillary at best. My first instrument was a student model Lesson that was adequate. I one a local talent show at age 13 playing slightly jazzed up versions of pop tunes. I was, in effect, doing the Chuck Mangiione thing with a cornet & I wanted to upgrade to a flugelhorn. My parents were proud & enthusiastic enough to reward me by purchasing a $100 Cuesnon (1970) but the music store owner told my father if I brought my flugelhorn to Berklee school of Music, I'd get laughed out of the institution. The punch line is that I wasn't in HS yet, & had 4 years to decide what trumpet to buy (if any). I didnt get a flugelhorn. That day I came home with a silver $275 Olds trumpet w/an alligator case that I didn't want or need. The sound was bright, lean & brittle. To complicate matters my parents sent me to a very reputable local teacher (a trombonist) who told my father I was one of the most talented kids he had seen. First item on his agenda? To get rid of that 'piece 'o crap' Olds trumpet & sell me a Bach Stradivarius trumpet. Yes, he talked my parents into it & he sold it as an agent for his former teacher, John Coffey, who played with the Boston Symphony & owned a music store. I am sure my teacher made a small commission on the $325 deal. This was the same guy who insisted on making those embouchure changes that set me back years. (Had I been able to pull my own strings I would have eventually bought a Holton Maynard Ferguson model trumpet--as I HATED the Bach trumpet.) At that point I did develop an aversion to the brightness of the trumpet & often wished that I played keyboard or sax. At that time I just picked up an electric bass guitar & demonstrated some aptitude--& that became a guilty pleasure because I was stagnant on the trumpet after the embouchure change. (I quit bass, recently took it up & now gigging is my principal source of income).
Thank you very much for the clarification.
Sorry for going so far into detail.
No problem. A little bit of background information puts things in context.
The only thing I don't understand is why you borrowed a trumpet, presumably you borrowed the trumpet before buying your flugel, in order to get you lip back in.l
The point is that I like the trumpet in the context of hard core Mahler, Sibelius & Shostakovich symphonies, but I don't want to play it.
Fair enough.
I also like the tendency of American orchestras using German style trumpets for Bruckner, Brahms, Wagner etc. As a jazz listener there are some trumpet players who impress me, such as Sandoval. However I am still put off by brightness. Listen to Woody Shaw play the Woody Woodpecker song & you'll see what I mean. The flugelhorn is smoother & more forgiving, & even when you hear clams it sounds kinda jazzy. So that Holton trumpet is being returned tomorrow!
Again fair enough. Woody Shaw playing the Woody Woodpecker Song is unavailable on Youtube in the UK, so I cannot listen to it. Are you referencing this as an example of a bright trumpet sound of smoother flugel sound? I'm not particularly familiar with Woody Shaw to be honest.
So if you are only going to be playing flugel, obviously you don't need to worry about keeping to a consistent rim, and can go with what gives you both the sound and playability which you are looking for on flugel.
Take Care
Lou
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_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | bassguy wrote: |
Actually I think you have misunderstood.
Hi bassguy
Hi Lou,
The only thing I don't understand is why you borrowed a trumpet, presumably you borrowed the trumpet before buying your flugel, in order to get you lip back in.l[/b]
I borrowed the trumpet after getting the flugelhorn & finding that the flugelhorn wasnt too playable because of the large mouthpiece. I needed a frame of reference & got lots of insight regarding how much easier it was to get from the low register to the high register with far less facial movement compared to the flugelhorn. When I slur on the flugelhorn there is way more facial movement--not very efficient.
I also like the tendency of American orchestras using German style trumpets for Bruckner, Brahms, Wagner etc. As a jazz listener there are some trumpet players who impress me, such as Sandoval. However I am still put off by brightness. Listen to Woody Shaw play the Woody Woodpecker song & you'll see what I mean. The flugelhorn is smoother & more forgiving, & even when you hear clams it sounds kinda jazzy. So that Holton trumpet is being returned tomorrow!
Again fair enough. Woody Shaw playing the Woody Woodpecker Song is unavailable on Youtube in the UK, so I cannot listen to it. Are you referencing this as an example of a bright trumpet sound of smoother flugel sound? I'm not particularly familiar with Woody Shaw to be honest.
Shaw's rendition of the Woody Woodpecker song is virtuosic but bright & strident.
So if you are only going to be playing flugel, obviously you don't need to worry about keeping to a consistent rim, and can go with what gives you both the sound and playability which you are looking for on flugel.
Take Care
Lou
Quick addendum. After only 3 days I am adapting to the Wicks 4FL. I read on this site that a mouthpiece size is like a shoe size, & that's probably true. However, embouchures are plastic & also become acclimated to any given mouthpuece in time. So it might be true that at any given time there is an optimal mouthpiece for a given player, he can't always walk into a music store & evaluate a mouthpiece with a quick audition. For whatever reason this 4FL is now far more comfortable & I am optimistic about trying out the Curry 7 FLD which has the same 16.5mm inner rim, but is more shallow.
Thanx again TC
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