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freshdax
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 Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:08 pm Post subject: Vibrato vs. Trill! |
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Hey guys!
please have a listen to the following (terrific) excerpt from a John Wilson Proms concert:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT5hMTnpZbY&feature=youtu.be&t=4m8s
Just wondering, are the trumpet(s) playing vibrato, or would you go by describing it as a trill? I first thought it's clearly a vibrato, but after all it could also be a trill....not sure about the interval wideness.
...just in general, how to draw the line between vibrato and trill??! I mean it's really not that easy to differentiate from each other....
Also, would you agree that trills on trumpets are mostly used in classical concertos (like a trumpet concerto) and are rather rare for full sections? The only trumpet trill (which really is a trill!) which would come to my mind would be the ending of Gershwin's Piano Concerto.
Looking forward for your insights!  |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Vibrato |
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dstdenis
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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I'd call that vibrato, not a lip trill (and definitely not a fingered trill).
Maybe it would help to imagine how a violin is played, because we can see what the violinist is doing. For vibrato, they wiggle the forearm and hand back and forth, which makes the finger rock back and forth while holding the one note. For a trill, they hold a lower note with one finger on the fingerboard while they hammer another finger on and off the string on a higher neighbor note.
It's similar with trumpet: with vibrato, we hold one note with the embouchure while either using hand vibrato or lip/jaw vibrato to rock the pitch slightly down and back up again repeatedly while holding the same pitch setting with the embouchure. With a lip trill, we flex the embouchure and raise and lower the tongue to break up to a higher pitch and back down again repeatedly while holding the same fingering. For a fingered trill, we play the neighbor note on the valves.
Fingered trills are common in baroque music on trumpet. Lip trills (a.k.a., "shakes") are common in big band (swing) music on trumpet.
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ATrumpetBrony
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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+1
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freshdax
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| dstdenis wrote: | I'd call that vibrato, not a lip trill (and definitely not a fingered trill).
Maybe it would help to imagine how a violin is played, because we can see what the violinist is doing. For vibrato, they wiggle the forearm and hand back and forth, which makes the finger rock back and forth while holding the one note. For a trill, they hold a lower note with one finger on the fingerboard while they hammer another finger on and off the string on a higher neighbor note.
It's similar with trumpet: with vibrato, we hold one note with the embouchure while either using hand vibrato or lip/jaw vibrato to rock the pitch slightly down and back up again repeatedly while holding the same pitch setting with the embouchure. With a lip trill, we flex the embouchure and raise and lower the tongue to break up to a higher pitch and back down again repeatedly while holding the same fingering. For a fingered trill, we play the neighbor note on the valves.
Fingered trills are common in baroque music on trumpet. Lip trills (a.k.a., "shakes") are common in big band (swing) music on trumpet. |
Thank you, that helped a lot! |
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Vin DiBona
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:02 am Post subject: |
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I'm surprised Seth MacFarlane did not break out into Peter Griffin or any of the other dozen voices he does on Family Guy.
R Tomasek, |
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ATrumpetBrony
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Vin DiBona wrote: | I'm surprised Seth MacFarlane did not break out into Peter Griffin or any of the other dozen voices he does on Family Guy.
R Tomasek, |
I was hoping he would! That was really a fantastic performance, I would've loved to see it live.
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oxleyk
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Aside from screaming sopranos I don't hear any trills or vibrato.
Kent |
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freshdax
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Just wondering is a lip trill also used on usual trills with an interval of a minor or major second?
Guess this is a lip trill as well??
https://youtu.be/bGHY4M2UDMg?t=31m42s
Is it true that conventional (fingered) trills in later 20th century classical music and film scoring are rather a rare thing?
| oxleyk wrote: | Aside from screaming sopranos I don't hear any trills or vibrato.
Kent |
lol, you should clean your ears  But true the sopranos just overshatter them all. |
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Nonsense Eliminator
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| freshdax wrote: | | Is it true that conventional (fingered) trills in later 20th century classical music and film scoring are rather a rare thing? |
No. Trills are very common in contemporary symphonic music.
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freshdax
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| could you post an example? |
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dstdenis
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| freshdax wrote: | | Just wondering is a lip trill also used on usual trills with an interval of a minor or major second? |
With lip trills, the trumpeter plays the higher neighbor that's available given the fingering. So if it's a lip trill on a G at the top of the staff and the trumpeter plays it open, the higher neighbor is Bb and the lip trill interval would be a minor 3rd. If the trumpeter uses an alternate fingering on the same G, like valves 1 and 3, then the higher neighbor is A and the lip trill interval would be a major second.
I'm not sure. The New York Philharmonic puts select pages from their library online, including this piece. The part is for Bb trumpet, and it's marked as a trill on a G at the top of the staff, with an A in parenthesis to indicate that the upper neighbor is the A. This is a very difficult trill to play with conventional fingering, but the recording doesn't sound like a lip trill either. It's so fast and angular, it sounds like it might be a fingered trill, maybe with alternate fingerings. But I'm not sure.
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MikeyZ
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:08 am Post subject: Vibrato or Trill. |
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This is Vibrato for sure. A Lip Trill is more like whistling using the back of your tongue.
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Anthony Barrington
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:55 am Post subject: RE: Vibrato or Trill |
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That is vibrato and quite an exciting one at that!
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audreyl138
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| I agree that it is vibrato. Also, trills are not uncommon for section playing, especially in baroque music. I believe Strauss and Mahler have written some things where the section trills together..for example, Mahler Symphony No. 1 Mvmt II (scherzo). |
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bike&ed
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding the 2 clips:
-The Proms ending is vibrato
-The Bernstein ending is a lip trill (most likely, some players can do that kind of effect using fingerings) |
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GRVTrumpet
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Vibrato for the Proms
Lip Trill for Bernstein
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TanaTrumpeter
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpets are Vibrato. Sounds exceptional too |
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