Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Posts: 697 Location: Flinders, Australia
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:01 pm Post subject:
My experience, 3 horns with light and heavy caps,
Eclipse MS, caps not very heavy,no difference.
Selmer TT, mediun weight, attenuated the higher harmonics, sounded dull.
Taylor 46 Magnum max, a very heavy horn 4lbs, came with Harrelson Kit, heavy finger buttons, top and bottom caps, replaced with original, sound not changed, feel response better for me.
Tone intensifier, about 20 years ago met a trombone player with a very heavy collar on his mouthpiece, conversation.
What is that on your mouthpiece?
It's a tone intensifier.
What does it do?
It intensifies the tone.
Does it work?
It must work, it cost $45.
Joined: 13 Aug 2012 Posts: 71 Location: Antigonish NS Canada
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:59 pm Post subject:
I have a Kanstul Stamm F. Besson horn. It came with regular bottom caps, really heavy bottom caps and spacer rings for the bottom caps. What I use on it now are harrelson 1/2 inch bottom caps and finger buttons. What change did it make? I can't remember but they are shiny gold plated with natural paua inlays. Oh yeah! _________________ R Moore
French Besson "Stamm" 92BB
Monette B6S1
Couesnon Monopole Star Flugelhorn SN: 38882
GR Paul Tynan 65.4 FL V2 prototype
Joined: 24 Jan 2012 Posts: 433 Location: Newhall California
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:53 pm Post subject:
It is our experience that some players experiment with different aspects of adding mechanical damping to dial in the blow or sound of the instrument:
For some it has primarily to do with the perception of slotting. Usually this is a quest to improve the feel above a High C through Double C. Some players find success by adding damping in the valve section. Each player adds more or less according to their personal experience.
The other typical experiment is to see if it is possible to darken sound. It is possible to attenuate some of the highs in the extreme overtones thus to a small degree darken or alter the sound. It is our experience that this involves adding a significant amount of damping and is typically not as successful from the players standpoint. As pointed out in this thread there is more tonal color change available in mouthpiece choice.
The less common aspect players are looking to change it the sense of connectivity throughout the range of the instrument. Adding mechanical damping or weight to the horn makes the target easier to find, we call this slotting. If your slots are more defined or broader moving from note to note is perceived as easier.
All of this said everyone will experience various degrees of positive or negative feedback from the experiment. In any case this type of experimentation is getting relatively deep in to the weeds and looking for small increases in results. Rarely if ever will this turn a horn that does not play well for you into a horn that does
It is our experience that some players experiment with different aspects of adding mechanical damping to dial in the blow or sound of the instrument:
For some it has primarily to do with the perception of slotting. Usually this is a quest to improve the feel above a High C through Double C. Some players find success by adding damping in the valve section. Each player adds more or less according to their personal experience.
The other typical experiment is to see if it is possible to darken sound. It is possible to attenuate some of the highs in the extreme overtones thus to a small degree darken or alter the sound. It is our experience that this involves adding a significant amount of damping and is typically not as successful from the players standpoint. As pointed out in this thread there is more tonal color change available in mouthpiece choice.
The less common aspect players are looking to change it the sense of connectivity throughout the range of the instrument. Adding mechanical damping or weight to the horn makes the target easier to find, we call this slotting. If your slots are more defined or broader moving from note to note is perceived as easier.
All of this said everyone will experience various degrees of positive or negative feedback from the experiment. In any case this type of experimentation is getting relatively deep in to the weeds and looking for small increases in results. Rarely if ever will this turn a horn that does not play well for you into a horn that does
I wonder if the "east coast high note guy" K.O. was talking about is Mac Gollehon. He's had some funky looking horns over the years, and on with solder wrapped all over the bell and running slide and other places.
Well... I didn't think I'd really notice anything but I did.
Brass valve guides in. They are a bit noisier than plastic for moving the valves.
New springs helped the valve sluggishness a bit. Only a bit though.
And then I got a "tone ring" too. Not much to that at all. Very light. I got a silver one instead of nickel, lacquer, or gold. That didn't actually fit over the third valve casing like I thought. I put it in the threads and the third valve bottom cap doesn't fit on all the way but is still tight.
No heavy valve caps, although I ordered some.
Results?
Possibly something with the tone. That's harder to tell. I'm not sure that's good necessarily if the tone maybe is darker but less resonant? If that's what it is.
Two effects though for sure. The first I noticed right away was that the very first part of articulation, the very beginning of the T, was right there. It was almost like the attacks were happening before my tongue even moved. That was different. I didn't mind. Maybe it's from practicing. Maybe it's from the brass guides and tone ring.
Then I noticed the slotting while slurring. I'm not sure this is good or bad. It's just different. I know how I'm thinking of it, but it's harder to describe. I was thinking of it like a waveform...
http://campus.pari.edu/radiosky/lessons/0overview/images/01labeledWave.jpg
The bottom part is the note. With the guides and tone ring those are easier to fall into and sit in. Less wiggle room. For slurring around on harmonics the high parts of the waveform are higher with the guides/ring. It's harder to get out of the note, to slur over to another one. Without the guides/ring, it was like those edges were lower and it's easier to jump over to another harmonic. Again, I'm not sure whether I like that or not or whether it's good or bad. It's different.
Whether and to what extent heavy valve caps, brass valve guides, tone intensifiers, etc. actually affect the sound and/or response to any significant degree is very controversial. The topic is further complicated by the fact that changes in the sound and/or response are not necessarily positive changes but, instead, are usually trade offs. You might get something but you might give up something in exchange. There's no universal agreement on what constitutes the "best" sound and response. There are a lot of trumpets available and they offer a multitude of different approaches to these topics.
I arbitrarily lump heavy valve caps, brass valve guides, tone intensifiers, etc. into the "gadget" category. My own opinion is that the effect of gadgets on sound and response is insignificant compared to changing such things as mouthpieces, leadpipes, bell tapers and metal composition.
Why not just buy a trumpet that sounds the way you want it to sound and responds the way you want it to respond with the mouthpiece you want to use from day one? If you want to change something about the sound and/or response, why not just change the mouthpiece? Changing the mouthpiece is far more likely to significantly change the sound and/or response than adding gadgets.
I'm not opposed to the use of gadgets even if they don't change anything about the sound and/or response. There are psychological aspects to playing trumpet. If a player thinks a gadget improves something this can give the player more confidence which, in turn, can make playing more satisfying, can encourage more practicing, etc. I'm in favor of anything that produces such results.
I think there's too much emphasis on equipment. There are no magic trumpets, magic mouthpieces or magic gadgets. The trumpet is all about the player's level of skill. A highly skilled player can sound great on any quality trumpet without the addition of gadgets.
Probably the best comments I have seen on this subject in all the various times it has been raised. And especially the last paragraph about too much emphasis on equipment.
Personally, I do not like things that add weight and make the horn harder to play, slow down the response, or deaden the tone. All of that is my opinion on extra weight items of all kinds.
My opinion is that the people who benefit the most from these devices are the people who make and sell them.
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 1739 Location: Western Massachusetts
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:49 am Post subject:
I am currently playing on a 1600i that obviously comes with the accessory kit. I have not used anything but the brass valve guides, mostly because I have always played/owned horns (Bach LT, 8310Z, and others) with brass guides. I also use the standard slide.
As mentioned, getting a horn that plays the way that you want it to play should be the priority. Gadgets don't make the horn a better horn.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:48 am Post subject:
Even though I had previously concluded that adding mass to a horn that wasn't designed that way probably wouldn't work well, I recently tried a set of (easily removable.....and returnable...) harmonic balancers on one of my horns. Absolutely HATED them, it made the horn feel stiff and a bit stuffy, I took them off halfway through the first set.
It depends on the player and what you prefer, I guess, what felt "stiff" to me might feel more "secure" to someone else.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:48 am Post subject:
My experience is that each horn is unique, and responds differently to changes. Some better, some worse.
I just bought a Schilke B3. Tried the horn, liked it. Thought I might mess with it a bit to see what some of the changes might do, and on all my Bach trumpets, metal valve guides and Curry valve stems have done wonders for the response of the horn, and the feel with the fingers. Figured it might make a good horn better, as it has many others before.
Well, not this time. Started with the valve guides only. They were a set I had purchased years before from the Brass Bow. The slowed the response of the instrument, added a tremendous amount of noise to the valves. Took them back off, put back in the nylon valve guides. Great horn returns!
So then I tried the valve stems. Made the valves feel heavier and less responsive. Response slowed as well. Back off the came, originals returned on horn. Great horn returns!
So, then I thought I would try a set of weighted Schilke valve caps. The lighter version of the caps, not the heavy, heavy ones. Tried them all the way on, tightened down as normal caps. They added a tremendous amount of depth to the tone without sacrifice of the qualities that were great! Tried spacing them with o-rings. Messed with the response too much. Back off with the o-rings, and kept the heavy caps on, tightened down flush. Great horn gets better! Winner!
I could write a similar journal about every horn I own, but the point is that each horn works best for each player differently. How I play dictates how the horn responds far more than anything else, for sure. But if these changes help me to feel more confident in my horn and my playing, and I am spending my own money and time, it's my choice.
AL _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music
I got a Dennis Wick tone ring and added that on. I can't tell any difference with that added. That's the brass valve guide, silver tone ring, and now the gold Dennis Wick one above that on the third valve.
Heavy valve caps arrived today. I'll add those on and see/hear what it does.
I have tried very few of the mentioned equipment changes, but when I did I noticed some differences. From my active playing years ('62 - current), my experience is that the metal valve guides are not the 'gadgets', rather the nylon guides are.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:45 pm Post subject:
david johnson wrote:
I have tried very few of the mentioned equipment changes, but when I did I noticed some differences. From my active playing years ('62 - current), my experience is that the metal valve guides are not the 'gadgets', rather the nylon guides are.
That sounds correct, in general, I like the brass guides. For one of my horns though, the valves seem to have a slightly lighter feel with the nylon, definitely quieter also.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:16 pm Post subject:
kevin_soda wrote:
If you think about it scientifically, it's all about carrying that waveform to the bell as efficiently as possible.
Yup, and most horns in existence were not designed with that in mind; very little thought about that aspect put in at all. Now if you have a really lightweight horn that plays great for you? I'd be hard pressed to think adding weight would help, but there are very many fine players who have done exactly that and sworn by the results.
Wayne Tanabe had a BIAS system whereby he measured a horn, and you could see what was going on in this regard. Also the results of tweaks. Very useful for things like brace placement, heavy valve caps or receivers, etc. Not too long after he got good with that Yamaha bought him out, and the drastic improvement in their top tier horns immediately following is a direct result of incorporating this, IMHO.
Something Jason Harrelson discovered is any loss of energy (or efficiency of standing wave, if you prefer) cannot be compensated for further downstream, meaning start with the little end.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:10 am Post subject:
Harrys wrote:
I'm curious, how can the brass guides vs the plastic ones make any difference? They don't move. The valve moves up an down on them.
I'm confused.
This may be incorrect (and I don't really think brass valve guides are in the same category as heavy caps, mouthpieces, etc.), but I think the theory is that because they are heavier than nylon guides, they, like heavy caps, "tighten" the horn with regards to slotting, and might darken the tone a bit. Like many things, if we THINK they change the horn maybe they do....or we just think they do.
I'm not sure why horn builders went from brass to plastic, I wouldn't think the cost difference had a lot to do with it.
My experience has been that they add a slightly more solid "feel" to the valve action, they also can be a little noisier. On one of my horns I do prefer the nylon guides.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
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