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rotary flugel out of tune pitches



 
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Andreas Sperhis
Regular Member


Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 11
Location: Athens Greece

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject: rotary flugel out of tune pitches Reply with quote

hi!

In short, I have these questions about rotary flugels:

Which are the common out of tune notes on a decent instrument?
Do they have the same out of tune issues as common piston Bb trumpets? (mainly low C# and D)
Which pitches are usually corrected with the 3rd valve trigger on the rotary flugel?

Longer personal story:

I never had any experience with rotary flugels, just common Bb piston trumpets, started playing about 20 years ago. I recently got a very old weltklang rotary flugel from an outdoor flea market in Athens, Greece (60 euros!).

Fixed the dents on the bell, no other serious dents or malfunction of valves etc. Bumpers replaced. Valves dismantled oiled, instrument washed etc.
Valves are now quite fast. I have tried playing it with a 1 1/2 C bach trumpet mouthpiece and a JK 1 and 1/2 C FL mouthpiece.

I am experiencing many out of tune notes all around the range of the instrument. Low C# and D are okay, low C very flat. Maybe it's just the poor quality. It doesn't have a 3rd valve trigger either.

thanks in advance!

Nikos K
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Yamaha 2335
Carol Brass CTR-5000l-YST-Bb-SLB
Weltklang rotary flugelhorn
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Tony Scodwell
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Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 1458

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:04 pm    Post subject: Rotaryflugels Reply with quote

I've made a couple rotary flugels using Amati (Cerveyny) valves. I used my bell and leadpipe with the Amati shepards crook lower branch but did not make the lower branch the main tuning slide as on my piston flugels. The low D and C# are indeed sharp but the Amati trigger is so well placed it is a natural feel with the pinky finger. All other notes are spot on and it blows like my piston flugel with the same sound. Sounds like your horn needs some adjustments on the slides to get it corrected.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com
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GordonH
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Joined: 16 Nov 2002
Posts: 2571
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the bottom C is flat with the slide all the way in then it may be mouthpiece related. I assume that flugel has European shank (like a trumpet shank)? These instruments are generally played on medium depth mouthpieces in that special fitting. It might be worth trying one. There are some cheap brands around. If this does not help you may need to shorten the instrument a bit. Not ideal, but you could then set the first and third slides to bring more of the notes into tune, as we do with piston valve flugels that do not have a trigger.
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Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - B&H Imperial
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Mouthpieces - MV 3C variants by Breslmair & Horntrader

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Danbassin
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Joined: 13 Oct 2013
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GordonH wrote:
If the bottom C is flat with the slide all the way in then it may be mouthpiece related. I assume that flugel has European shank (like a trumpet shank)? These instruments are generally played on medium depth mouthpieces in that special fitting. It might be worth trying one. There are some cheap brands around. If this does not help you may need to shorten the instrument a bit. Not ideal, but you could then set the first and third slides to bring more of the notes into tune, as we do with piston valve flugels that do not have a trigger.


+1

Besides the slight difference in shank-fit, these European rotary flugels were typically played with (near) trumpet-shanked mouthpieces that are far shorter than conventional Bb trumpet mouthpieces. The difference in mouthpiece length can explain a number of the pattern intonation issues you've described. After that acoustic consideration, issues of backbore taper and cup depth choices can be dialed-in.

-DB
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Daniel Bassin
Conductor, Composer, Trumpeter, Educator

I play:
Monette CORNETTE
C: Monette P1
Various Bb, D trumpets.
Picc: mid-70s Schilke P4-3 (Monette A pipe)
MPCs: Monette Prana Resonance 1-1 series.
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GordonH
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Joined: 16 Nov 2002
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. They are paractically the same length as a standard British flugel mouthpiece but the backbore flares out to that larger size over the same length. The throats tend to be tighter too. All of this will affect the intonation. My first stop would be a proper mouthpiece. Denis Wick even make their B range of flugel mouthpieces in that fitting with appropriate backbores.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - B&H Imperial
Cornet - Besson Prestige, Conn 81A New Wonder
Mouthpieces - MV 3C variants by Breslmair & Horntrader

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM
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Andreas Sperhis
Regular Member


Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 11
Location: Athens Greece

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all for your suggestions.

In fact I bought a JK mouthpiece 1 1/2 C with a german 10mm shank. The total length of the mouthpiece is much shorter indeed. I checked the intonation with a tuner and although the problems are still there they are much less pronounced.

The throat of the Jk is 3.8mm as opposed to the 3.6mm of the bach mouthpiece. The cup is more funnel type and deeper. Diameter of the JK cup 16.8 mm., Bach 1 1/2 C 17mm.

I will probably send an email to JK to see what they suggest. I am looking for a more piercing sound, so maybe a shallower JK mouthpiece is the answer. A balkan brass sound indeed.
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Carol Brass CTR-5000l-YST-Bb-SLB
Weltklang rotary flugelhorn
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