Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Biviano has always been an interesting lead player
Robert P wrote:
bach_again wrote:
IMO Scooter played the piss out of this chart. As for the "beyond his ability to execute" - that's laughable. The guy has chops to spare, and then some. Musical interpretation is what I heard.
No argument that Scott's a solid player. He does a better job on it than a lot of people could myself included. However I don't think he could match Maynard's album performance of this note for note even today.
To look at it from a different angle, do you think Scott is the equal of Kenton-era Maynard?
Much as I hate to judge? No one is the equal of Maynard. Ever, end discussion. All you need to do to prove this is to listen to the many MF Tribute bands. I havent seen anyone capture the tone, intensity and feeling.
Heck even as the years took their toll on his body, Maynard still did the best "impersonation" of himself.
Other: someone mentioned the "effortless" playing of high notes. I cant exactly concur with this as being a benefit. In as much as those who get the best tone above high F and such always seem to be working kinda hard. Those triple C players are impressive and their ease of playing enviable. But it is those with the bigger sounds and rich timbre I try to duplicate. Cant say I've duplicated them but I try. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Biviano has always been an interesting lead player
Lionel wrote:
Robert P wrote:
To look at it from a different angle, do you think Scott is the equal of Kenton-era Maynard?
Much as I hate to judge? No one is the equal of Maynard. Ever, end discussion. All you need to do to prove this is to listen to the many MF Tribute bands. I havent seen anyone capture the tone, intensity and feeling.
Listening to the Englebright college performance next to Maynard's recording, there's no comparison. For one thing they're playing it way too fast - my guess is it was so Scott didn't have to linger on the licks too long - but even at that he's taking a lot of breaths where Maynard didn't even at a slower tempo. This college performance is a valiant attempt but he simply doesn't have the same bag of tools young Maynard had. The far superior control and sound Maynard brought to it is just in a whole different place. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Scott does a really nice job on Maynard's piece. I know Arturo recorded it on his tribute CD. I've never heard it.
I would love to hear Wayne Bergeron have a go at it. Wayne's MacArthur Park on the tribute concert DVD was spot on. I thought he had the closest Maynard like sound.
Let's face the fact that no one had the sound that Maynard had. I was very fortunate to have heard Cat Anderson live way back in 73 with Lionel Hampton. As great as the Cat was even he didn't have that sound. Cat was a really fine jazz player and on a few of his solos he barely played above the staff.
Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Biviano has always been an interesting lead player
+1
bach_again wrote:
Robert P wrote:
RussellDDixon wrote:
Quote:
I haven't heard a version of "Maynard Ferguson" that I like as well as Maynard's and it's because his has a rough-edged, fiery, swinging for the fence quality - it's there on every performance of it I've heard by Maynard. Eric Miyashiro for example plays it solid but he almost sounds like he's playing an Arban's exercise.
I like this one ... effortless ...
That's the first version I encountered of someone attempting it besides Maynard. I have it on video somewhere. I guess he was in college at the time. Too rushed at the beginning, he wasn't getting any of the pacing and musicality of Maynard's. I'm sure he worked on it really hard however he cuts corners in some places where I think Maynard's original licks were just beyond his ability to execute. I believe when Maynard first did it with Kenton he was about the same age as Scott was in this video. Maynard didn't have a model to emulate, it was let's see what you can do with this new chart.
The problem with doing an iconic piece is if you don't really nail it, it's glaringly obvious. The difference between the genuine article and a pretty good Chinese knockoff.
Not fussed on the "Chinese knockoff" comment.
IMO Scooter played the piss out of this chart. As for the "beyond his ability to execute" - that's laughable. The guy has chops to spare, and then some. Musical interpretation is what I heard.
I consider Scooter's MF to be 2nd only to Mayn's. Superb energy, and such an alive tone.
Maynard had the depth of emotion and wisdom in his sound that no other player could come close to. Maynard was just that great. Lin Biviano was greatly influenced by Maynard as was Dave Stahl and all the the great trumpet stars. Maynard was the one trumpet star that everyone wish they had what he had.
I think that one thing that helped Maynard become the much admired, great player that he was is that he was always out there performing. Week after week, year/year for six decades.
Public performance sharpens skills better than anything else. This is why trumpet player ins interested in achieving some technical goal like a range increase? Ought to fill their schedule up with rehearsals, and performances.
Back in the day I used to know a couple of college guys who had decent sounding double C's. Yet they only felt sure of themselves in the practice room. I remember once as a college freshman having to yield my first chair book (in the big band jazz ensemble) to one of these guys. I wasnt pleased to do this but out of respect for the director and this other trumpet player (he was a graduate student). But the guy's high notes were only "practice room ready". Wasnt tested on stage where it counts.
So I was watching his chart closely though sitting out the number. This because the first trumpet entrance is a high D, second ledger line that must be hit solidly and dead on the money. No sliding into the note and a truly exposed part. Where a clam is really ugly.
He hit air. No sound at all. It happens. Could happen to anyone but on that chart, even in my youth I never missed the entrance. The guy felt bad about it, returned the lead book to me and never sat in with us again. He did however go on to a fine career in performance. That matter was just a bump in the road. But it proves my point about the difference between the theoretical and performance tested high notes. As here was a cat we all knew was capable of playing nice double C's in practice. Hell that note used to practically kill me. Still isnt my best note. However the fellow with the good double C's in practice wasn't up to being reliable on a much lower note. Not when it really counted.
And this "tested under performance" characteristic is much of what made Biviano and Maynard great. They had the kind of poise and confidence only gained by putting themselves out there night after night for so many years. And I think Jeff S pointed this out, Biviano really lit up the band like no one else. And he improved over the years. If you were alive back in the early 1970's you will concur with me too. The guy just got better and better.
I'd say that Biviano made a good bridge between the artist and a technician. Technical players who aren't all that creative are well liked by band leaders. Because they play well if only rarely making a mistake. That and follow all dynamic indications etc. The support the singer, bandleader or show well and do not make waves. All at the risk of being kind of dull. The true artist has technical ability too but doesn't let this get in the way of his expression. He sorta "lives" his instrument or voice. Miles Davis being a good example of this. He and Maynard were close friends too. In fact there's a video where Maynard describes Miles as someone who wasnt trying to play perfectly. He preferred to communicate well with an audience. Rather than impress them with perfection or virtuosity all the time.
And with Biviano I see a truly great combination of the artist and the technician. He plays fantastic from a technical level but doesnt let perfection stagnate the outcome. We went to his concerts because we knew he was gonna blow the roof off the joint. We knew also that he always gave a hundred percent and he would be testing his limits. Something that the purely technical musician never does. And once in a while he'd hit a few clunkers. But not many. Which is just part of the risk a creative lead trumpet player endures. It is however one of the qualities that makes a trumpet player like Biviano so rare.
I read somewhere a critique/comparison of Miles and Wynton which was not only true but kinda funny as well. A noted observer once mused, "the listening public would rather hear Miles play all the notes in a scale wrong rather than Wynton Marsalis play them all correctly". The key ingredient is style. Which comes from artistry which comes from playing from the heart. From this angle I personally feel that Biviano is one of the greats of all time. And his jazz soloing is as good as any trumpet player. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
I read somewhere a critique/comparison of Miles and Wynton which was not only true but kinda funny as well. A noted observer once mused, "the listening public would rather hear Miles play all the notes in a scale wrong rather than Wynton Marsalis play them all correctly".
Noted Observer's brother said - "He said that did he? Lol. Of course we ALL know nothing is more accurate and reliable than broad generalizations that presume to speak for everyone." _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Miles was the quintessential artist the Picasso of Jazz. Wynton was young and did not have the humility and wisdom at the time when he sat in with Miles and similarly the famous saying that Chet Baker said of Wynton, "If I could play like Wynton Marsalis I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis". O how humble Wynton Marsalis became. He is now the Clark Terry of jazz and deservedly so. There is no greater living trumpet player and educator than Wynton Marsalis. Wouldn't it be great if Lin Biviano would join this thread and tell us many stories and just what it was like to be him with all the greats, one could only hope.
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:53 pm Post subject:
RogerIngram wrote:
I was the one doing the hanging over on that gig and even I didn't like it. Don't encourage it.
TH is the only place where you can read about Roger Ingram's hangovers! LOL
Kidding aside, good to hear from you Sir. These are the things that make TH worth reading: one player has this or that opinion, then the one who did it chimes in. Invaluable knowledge for us all, that helps us all improve our craft. Thank you!
And of course it was the trumpet section that made Harry's band worth listening to
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