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Less Presure when going up ?


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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Although my teacher Claude Gordon advocated the idea of dismissing the amount of pressure used from conscious thought and letting proper routine practice take care of the amount of pressure used, my own approach, especially in recent times differs a bit from that idea.

There certainly is no such thing as "no pressure", and in most situations (and for sure while performing) I don't think about trying to reduce pressure. But I do find when doing certain exercises (flexibilities that run from the low to the high range and also the Maggio-style Claude Gordon Systematic Approach range-building arpeggio exercises) it can be helpful to to limit (within reason) the amount of pressure used as I ascend, even though this makes it feel like it will be harder to reach those top notes. This seems to force the other aspects involved in upper register playing (the air power, the tongue level and the adjustment of the embouchure to vibrate easily on the high notes) to have to compensate and "pick up the slack" caused by not using as much mouthpiece pressure. I think this helps because when we use too much pressure, we actually clamp our lips against our teeth and prevent them from being able to move into the position they need to be in to reach even higher notes.

For instance, as I run up through the single octave arpeggios in Systematic Approach Lesson Two, Part Two, when I get to where the bottom notes of the arpeggios are above tuning C, I'll purposely try to use the same amount of pressure on the final note (an octave above) as I did on the first note of each arpeggio exercise. This has helped me to get my notes above G above High C to be more consistent day to day. And it certainly has not caused any loss of sound volume on those higher notes.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
John Daniels has a section (flexibility) in his book concerning this.
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dershem
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had two teachers that got me on the road to a very low pressure system - Mic Gillette and Red Rodney. And I have found (after decades of playing with it) that it's quite possible top play with almost no pressure, and less when you go up, but only if your chops are very firm and very controlled.
Mic's trick he taught me was to rotate the horn on my chops while playing until it it upside-down. You can't do that if you are jamming the horn against your face. Red used a lot of flexibilities as strength builders that he developed when he was waiting for his new teeth.
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eviln3d
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

number juan wrote:
No, I haven't heard them. Not sure what hearing them has to do with how loud or strong I play. I know it's not weak because I can play an f above high c well enough to project it over the rest of our over-sized jazz band. Kinda hurt the ears of the trombones in front of me from how loud it was.


I think the question is valid because sometimes a player like those you described is always heard after they are picked up on a mic. A good sound engineer can make someone sound just as loud at the top as the bottom regardless of how they would sound live with no mic. I think that is what he was getting at.
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wiemelen
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello all,
I've been focussing on using less pressure in the upper register for some months now.
Not that I'm really doing exercises or studies about it, just paying attention to it when I go up.
And indeed, I'm getting the results I want. Never thought I could hit a G or A above high C
However, I've got an issue with volume. Using less pressure, I can play F or FF till about a D over high C.
Beyond that, volume tends to go down to a small F or MF.
When I try to raise the volume up there, I seem to use more pressure and I can't hit the notes anymore.
Does anyone have suggestions on how to tackle this?
Cause if you can play a G over high C, you want everybody te hear, not just the saxophone player in front of you

Thanks,
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wiemelen wrote:
Hello all,
I've been focussing on using less pressure in the upper register for some months now.
Not that I'm really doing exercises or studies about it, just paying attention to it when I go up.
And indeed, I'm getting the results I want. Never thought I could hit a G or A above high C
However, I've got an issue with volume. Using less pressure, I can play F or FF till about a D over high C.
Beyond that, volume tends to go down to a small F or MF.
When I try to raise the volume up there, I seem to use more pressure and I can't hit the notes anymore.
Does anyone have suggestions on how to tackle this?
Cause if you can play a G over high C, you want everybody te hear, not just the saxophone player in front of you

Thanks,



I think that the key to managing arm pressure is to first understand what the heck it does. I haven't seen many good explanations on this subject anywhere. This isnt meant to put anyone down but merely to point out a peculiar condition.

In the book or movie "Moneyball" the point of the story is to learn to ask the right questions. Briefly put the correct question in putting a winning team on the field was to buy wins. Previously managers and coaches bought players but this was only beneficial to the wealthy teams which could afford the best players. But the analogy to brass playing I think is a good one. Whereas the baseball team became more efficient by asking the right questions the trumpet player can play more efficiently if he too asks the best question. Because if we ask the wrong question it won't help us so much as asking the best or at least better question. Thus I propose what I think is the better question.

"What does arm or mouthpiece pressure do"?

This I think is a better question than the natural one which is usually "how much arm pressure should I use"?

So allow me to try to answer the better question ie "what does pressure do"?

And the answer I found was not that it helped produce high notes. This I found to be true because if all we had to do to bkow high notes was to jam hard abd blow like hell? Well we would all have been playing high notes during our first week of learning the instrument.

Instead what I found during my research was that arm or mouthpiece pressure was much more associated with louder playing especially as it pertained to producing high notes. And this would tend to explain those high note squeak players. Or at least one of them who posted earlier on this topic. He had stated words to the effect that so long as he kept his volume soft he could squeal about as high or even higher than any musical chart woul)d ever require. Just keep this idea in mind for a spell. Because now I'm really gonna try and answer my own question. Again this being, "What does pressure do"?
And my best solution to this question is that arm or mouthpiece pressure (aka: mouthpiece weight) creates a superior distinction between that part of the embouchure which vibrates and that which doesn't.

Picture for a minute that portion on your upper lip (because it is the upper lip which vibrate) where the mouthpiece's inner rim edge contacts. This is often referred to as the mouthpiece "bite". Okay this is the exact spot where your lip stops vibrating the air column as it passes from your mouth into the horn. It is also the most critical point where mouthpiece pressure is placed. And of course this is why I define this part of the upper lip as the area most affected by arm pressure. I just haven't made up a definition I'm satisfied with yet to describe this important contact point. However I feel that this connection where embouchure duties are segregated simply must be the point where mouthpiece pressure most affects.

Now that I've answered that question at least in a basic sense I will get to the heart if the matter. Because now that we at least know the area on our chops most affected by pressure perhaps we can figure how to reduce arm pressure without losing good volume on a high note.

Remember, pressure is much more directly associated with volume production. Esp volume on a high note. As opposed to just making high notes. We know this is true because so many squeak artists out there complain that they can squeak to high heaven but can not produce a decent double forte.

Well I think I've got an answer for them too. Because if the area on the upper lip at the rim "bite" is the place where pressure is most affecting? Then it stands to reason that all that this pressure is doing is more effectively separating that portion of your chops that vibrates and that which doesn't

Picture for a second the axis on a seesaw. Or better still the hinge on a door. If a door hinge isnt solidly set the door will shake and may stick. Or not open at all. Yet when it is lined up perfectly with the other one or two hinges the door will swing open and closed easily.

Thus the reason trumpet players, especially younger and less developed ones use excessive pressure is because their "hinges" are weak and/or undeveloped.

So what I did to help my high note production was to concentrate on making the strongest distinction possible between my vibrating portion of my lip and the outer muscles or flesh which does not vibrate. Part of this regimen included a few exercises to help my mind and chops define this described axis or hinge. Then the other was to strengthen the hell out of my facial muscles.

Again, one set of facial flesh stayed totally soft. This is the part of my upper lip which vibrated.

The other became so strong it could do the pencil exercise all afternoon and then some.

And it worked! It really did and better ]than anything else I've ever tried. Got me able to blow my high G at volume without excessive pressure. That and made my double C at least available on the bandstand. I've never had trouble with volume production as I've never been a squeak artist. I almost can't even relate to those cats although I've learned much about them over the years.

If anyone is still reading this long post and wants more info? Plesse contact me on private message.

Oh and one last thought,

Part of the evidence for the conclusions posted above is due to those good high note players I've studied or worked with who use some form of dry lip setting in the mouthpiece. Those dry players that is who can either play at all dynamic levels or are merely squeak artists.

Because the significance of the dry lip player just adds even more merit to my "Hinge Theory". The dry lip setting (IF it works for you because it surely doesn't work for me!) just places even more distinction of flesh or muscle usage at the inner rim edge of the mouthpiece. Or rather that portion of the upper lip which the inner rim or bite contacts.

This all may sound tricky but believe me it isn't. It's all about as difficult to understand as the way your knee functions. And it works! It really does and it's free for the taking too.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
wiemelen wrote:
Hello all,
I've been focussing on using less pressure in the upper register for some months now.
Not that I'm really doing exercises or studies about it, just paying attention to it when I go up.
And indeed, I'm getting the results I want. Never thought I could hit a G or A above high C
However, I've got an issue with volume. Using less pressure, I can play F or FF till about a D over high C.
Beyond that, volume tends to go down to a small F or MF.
When I try to raise the volume up there, I seem to use more pressure and I can't hit the notes anymore.
Does anyone have suggestions on how to tackle this?
Cause if you can play a G over high C, you want everybody te hear, not just the saxophone player in front of you

Thanks,



I think that the key to managing arm pressure is to first understand what the heck it does. I haven't seen many good explanations on this subject anywhere. This isnt meant to put anyone down but merely to point out a peculiar condition.

In the book or movie "Moneyball" the point of the story is to learn to ask the right questions. Briefly put the correct question in putting a winning team on the field was to buy wins. Previously managers and coaches bought players but this was only beneficial to the wealthy teams which could afford the best players. But the analogy to brass playing I think is a good one. Whereas the baseball team became more efficient by asking the right questions the trumpet player can play more efficiently if he too asks the best question. Because if we ask the wrong question it won't help us so much as asking the best or at least better question. Thus I propose what I think is the better question.

"What does arm or mouthpiece pressure do"?

This I think is a better question than the natural one which is usually "how much arm pressure should I use"?

So allow me to try to answer the better question ie "what does pressure do"?

And the answer I found was not that it helped produce high notes. This I found to be true because if all we had to do to bkow high notes was to jam hard abd blow like hell? Well we would all have been playing high notes during our first week of learning the instrument.

Instead what I found during my research was that arm or mouthpiece pressure was much more associated with louder playing especially as it pertained to producing high notes. And this would tend to explain those high note squeak players. Or at least one of them who posted earlier on this topic. He had stated words to the effect that so long as he kept his volume soft he could squeal about as high or even higher than any musical chart woul)d ever require. Just keep this idea in mind for a spell. Because now I'm really gonna try and answer my own question. Again this being, "What does pressure do"?
And my best solution to this question is that arm or mouthpiece pressure (aka: mouthpiece weight) creates a superior distinction between that part of the embouchure which vibrates and that which doesn't.

Picture for a minute that portion on your upper lip (because it is the upper lip which vibrate) where the mouthpiece's inner rim edge contacts. This is often referred to as the mouthpiece "bite". Okay this is the exact spot where your lip stops vibrating the air column as it passes from your mouth into the horn. It is also the most critical point where mouthpiece pressure is placed. And of course this is why I define this part of the upper lip as the area most affected by arm pressure. I just haven't made up a definition I'm satisfied with yet to describe this important contact point. However I feel that this connection where embouchure duties are segregated simply must be the point where mouthpiece pressure most affects.

Now that I've answered that question at least in a basic sense I will get to the heart if the matter. Because now that we at least know the area on our chops most affected by pressure perhaps we can figure how to reduce arm pressure without losing good volume on a high note.

Remember, pressure is much more directly associated with volume production. Esp volume on a high note. As opposed to just making high notes. We know this is true because so many squeak artists out there complain that they can squeak to high heaven but can not produce a decent double forte.

Well I think I've got an answer for them too. Because if the area on the upper lip at the rim "bite" is the place where pressure is most affecting? Then it stands to reason that all that this pressure is doing is more effectively separating that portion of your chops that vibrates and that which doesn't

Picture for a second the axis on a seesaw. Or better still the hinge on a door. If a door hinge isnt solidly set the door will shake and may stick. Or not open at all. Yet when it is lined up perfectly with the other one or two hinges the door will swing open and closed easily.

Thus the reason trumpet players, especially younger and less developed ones use excessive pressure is because their "hinges" are weak and/or undeveloped.

So what I did to help my high note production was to concentrate on making the strongest distinction possible between my vibrating portion of my lip and the outer muscles or flesh which does not vibrate. Part of this regimen included a few exercises to help my mind and chops define this described axis or hinge. Then the other was to strengthen the hell out of my facial muscles.

Again, one set of facial flesh stayed totally soft. This is the part of my upper lip which vibrated.

The other became so strong it could do the pencil exercise all afternoon and then some.

And it worked! It really did and better ]than anything else I've ever tried. Got me able to blow my high G at volume without excessive pressure. That and made my double C at least available on the bandstand. I've never had trouble with volume production as I've never been a squeak artist. I almost can't even relate to those cats although I've learned much about them over the years.

If anyone is still reading this long post and wants more info? Plesse contact me on private message.

Oh and one last thought,

Part of the evidence for the conclusions posted above is due to those good high note players I've studied or worked with who use some form of dry lip setting in the mouthpiece. Those dry players that is who can either play at all dynamic levels or are merely squeak artists.

Because the significance of the dry lip player just adds even more merit to my "Hinge Theory". The dry lip setting (IF it works for you because it surely doesn't work for me!) just places even more distinction of flesh or muscle usage at the inner rim edge of the mouthpiece. Or rather that portion of the upper lip which the inner rim or bite contacts.

This all may sound tricky but believe me it isn't. It's all about as difficult to understand as the way your knee functions. And it works! It really does and it's free for the taking too.


Interesting post! It's refreshing to read a different take on these fundamental things.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eviln3d wrote:
Martinharris wrote:

Doc severinsen mentioned that too little pressure can cause more problems then too much.
That's just what's going on in my head, ignore me if you wish.


How funny... Back in the 70's he was saying you didn't need to use lots of pressure to play the high notes, even recall him doing a thing where he set the horn on an extended music stand and played a high C to drive home the point that pressure isn't necessary for a high note.

I've heard of him doing that but someone recently quoted his "no pressure, no tone, no job" statement.

He may have been illustrating a point but it doesn't reflect his everyday playing technique. Watch videos of him playing loud and high - his lips are white when he snatches the mp off, he has pronounced scarring on his lips as does every strong high note player I've ever thought to check.
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Arjuna
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arturo Sandoval started out this way with the squeaks and squeals.
There is a certain feel that is desirable, it is a feeling of being locked in softly, lightly and without excess pressure.
This feel of using less air to lock in and not force with too much air, can help a player find the higher notes easier.
What helps to develop this feel is control of the aperture by practicing softly and performing with the use of dynamics.
Caruso's 6 note exercise and Bill Adam leadpipe buzzing are ideal for developing this ability.




trjeam wrote:
I have noticed something that when I squeal a note or go higher I use less preasure as I go up . Is this something weird or is it this way with everyone .
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McVouty
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Vizzutti advocates a soft, low pressure approach to training the chops for the high notes. This seems to work quite well for him - nobody ever accused him of having a weedy double C! He is a pains to point out in his book 'High Notes' that no pressure playing is a myth though, before the trolls descend from upon high!

I have been using his exercises, which focus on ppp aperture control in conjunction with the Gordon/Maggio type exercises which focus more on air support, and this seems to be reaping dividends for me!

My take on it is that there is a balance of embouchure strength vs air compression. The louder you play, the more air is being forced through the lips and the stronger your lips need to be to maintain the aperture. In the absence of lip strength we tend to push the mouthpiece on the lips to stop the lips from collapsing. The problem with practicing this way is that there is a strong possibility that you never properly develop the lip strength and rely solely on air pressure and arm pressure to get the notes.

I remember back in the day when I played with our local youth band, the lead trumpet player went down to London to become a professional player and took some lessons with the pros. He could play some pretty high notes and pretty darn loud and with lots of effort, but when they asked him to play the same notes quietly he couldn't do it- they warned him he needed to change the way he played or risk blowing his chops out. A salutary lesson in efficient trumpet playing.
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Trompetissimo74
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What has really worked for me is to focus on the middle register and to develop as effortless way of playing as possible.
The focus is on practising as much as 80% in soft dynamics (p-mp-mf) and really take time to feel a relaxed air flow, and a soft/light articulation (I focus a lot on trying to articulate IN the sound - not ON the sound).

I try my best to develop the same easy way of playing when moving up in the register. Always focusing on the light way of playing and a secure and soft articulation.

Books: The buzzing book, Clarke (all exercises), Arban (first 25 pages)
Alternatives when get bored: James Stamp, Vizzuti flexibility and Caruso

My experience is that with this way of focusing on ease playing ang soft control - my embouchure is also prepared to be beaten up during a hard night - but it will also recover faster.

There is absolutely no hard/brutal way of making the trumpet sing - except of practicing our butt off......

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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Sailors wrote:
Martinharris wrote:
Sorry, but I don't like the sound of that.
My guess would be that you have a pretty weak, squeaky, quiet upper register like Trent Austin or Jason Harrelson (they use a very small aperture, low pressure approach that gives you a really thin, quiet upper register.)
Players who have that strong, rich sounding upper register such as Maynard, Brian macdonald and Wayne Bergeron all have a tendency to want to use more pressure on the upper register BUT have learnt to only use the minimal amount necessary.
Doc severinsen mentioned that too little pressure can cause more problems then too much.
That's just what's going on in my head, ignore me if you wish.


Your wish is my command.


Ha! LOL
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've personally had a lot of growth as a trumpet player over the last couple years and I can say one the roads I've traveled involves quiet, controlled, low pressure high notes. It definitely leads us in the right direction but you can't do only that. You still have to practice with your best tone the vast majority of the time. From my perspective, you can always add more air volume to get more amplitude but it's much harder to achieve quiet control. Thus, it is important to consider.
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, one thing people tend to forget, it's not just the arms that account for pressure. The muscles in your neck and upper torso are at least as important to be aware of. The best thing to do in general is to play with good posture and relaxed breath. Book 1, page 1.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wiemelen wrote:
Hello all,
I've been focussing on using less pressure in the upper register for some months now.
Not that I'm really doing exercises or studies about it, just paying attention to it when I go up.
And indeed, I'm getting the results I want. Never thought I could hit a G or A above high C
However, I've got an issue with volume. Using less pressure, I can play F or FF till about a D over high C.
Beyond that, volume tends to go down to a small F or MF.
When I try to raise the volume up there, I seem to use more pressure and I can't hit the notes anymore.
Does anyone have suggestions on how to tackle this?
Cause if you can play a G over high C, you want everybody te hear, not just the saxophone player in front of you

Thanks,


To get more bigness in sound on high F and such you might try these 3 things,

1. Pull more upper lip down below your upper teeth. Your mouth corner and nose muscles can put your upper lip lower below the upper teeth... This has nothing to do with mouthpiece placement on the lips. Is concerned only with preventing your upper teeth from cutting off the sound. "You can't play on your teeth". Understand this concept and you will know why so few trumpet players have good register above high C.

2. Do not close your teeth so much when above the staff.
Closed teeth ='s small sound.

3. Bigness in sound in the upper register is more associated with shallow mouthpiece cups. You'll get the biggest sound on a mouthpiece which you can support. Choose the mouthpiece you can command. Not the one which controls you.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wiemelen wrote:
Never thought I could hit a G or A above high C
However, I've got an issue with volume. Using less pressure, I can play F or FF till about a D over high C.
Beyond that, volume tends to go down to a small F or MF.
When I try to raise the volume up there, I seem to use more pressure and I can't hit the notes anymore.
Does anyone have suggestions on how to tackle this?


You've had a few months to work on this. I find this is extraordinarily simple. Play those quiet (even squeaky) notes as long as you have to, but sustain them on a stable pitch. Then repeat, and crescendo. Try not to overdo it, but do crescendo. One approach is to always do this last thing when you put the horn down for a few minutes rest. this keeps you from beating up your chops, which never helps.

These ideas come from Doc Reinhardt, and they work!
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