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ATrumpetBrony
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 Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:01 am Post subject: Is it just muscle? |
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I've been doing a lot of practice, and while I haven't noticed an incredible increase in my range (in fact, it seems to have gotten smaller - but that's okay, because...), but the top notes of my useable range... the G under high C, and surrounding notes.... have become laser beams, that I can fire off at *just about* any time. BUT, I don't even have a PLAYABLE high A just above that.
I was talking to a classical horn major who also plays jazz trumpet in a local cafe, and what he mentioned is that the start of strength and facility in the "upper register" is just by playing, playing, and playing there. Just building up muscle through playing as much as possible, and using the high register.
Is this the case?
Gives the impression that a lot of the exercises won't have as much effect as exclusively focusing on playing in the range one wants to improve. But what do you guys say? Is the start of gaining a high range simply from playing as much as possible up there? How does one get good at that if there's only lots of missed notes when trying that stuff?
Thanks 
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trickg
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:07 am Post subject: |
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From my perspective, it's about finding balance, which is a combination of focus and refinement of both your embouchure and air usage than about building muscle outright.
Think of it this way - does a championship dart player need a ton of muscle to hit triple 20s, or double bullseyes? No - they have refined their technique to a point of fine accuracy. Range is a similar thing.
Maybe a better analogy is the Major league fastball pitcher. Yes, it takes muscle, but would Nolan Ryan have gotten faster if he'd become a body builder? Probably not, and he'd probably have gotten slower.
It's not about building muscle, but rather a refinement of muscle usage and technique.
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:24 am Post subject: |
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The average sized adult (male or female) walking down the street has all the muscle strength needed to play a good, strong High C and can do so if he or she also has the feel or knack of how to do it. The first time I had my wife play my trumpet I had her playing a High C within the first two minutes. Others can struggle for years and never get there if they don't know how to and also not know how to develop what they seek.
High notes require two things: strength and coordination. To develop your range up to the area around High D or maybe even E above High C, you need to develop the coordination required - tongue level, embouchure position (which doesn't necessarily mean clamping the lips together) and how hard to blow.
Getting into the range of F above High C and higher (and also developing the ability to play in the High C range for more than a minute or two) requires the development of extraordinary strength and also in the case of the higher notes, the coordination (finding the feel or knack of how to play these higher notes).
A well-balanced daily routine practiced correctly and stuck to long enough for the development to occur will get you there. But if you're not practicing the correct material and practicing that material correctly, the development will not occur.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
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JJMDestino
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Does it take some muscle development to play in the upper register? Absolutely. However, I think muscle development is greatly overstated. In my belief it is much more about coordination and finesse, over muscling and strength. For me learning to play in the upper register was helped by playing exercises, i.e. Schlossberg, scales, etc, and working on playing music in the upper register. Check out the blog post secret to high notes 1-3 on joeytartell.com, I believe there to be many nuggets of wisdom contained there.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/joeytartell.com/2016/10/24/the-secret-to-high-notes-part-3/amp/?client=safari |
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Arjuna
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Is it just muscle? |
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Work hard but work smart.
Less equals more.
Balance.
Efficiency.
Bill Adam leadpipe buzzing.
Caruso's 6 note exercise.
Breathe naturally.
Make your chop set point at G on top of the staff.
Play with the highest quality sound possible at all times.
Practice slowly.
Practice softly.
Practice in 20-30 minute intervals with 1 hour rest between sessions.
Rest as much as you play.
Take the horn off the face often.
Find the ideal mouthpiece for you.
Find the ideal horn for you.
| ATrumpetBrony wrote: | I've been doing a lot of practice, and while I haven't noticed an incredible increase in my range (in fact, it seems to have gotten smaller - but that's okay, because...), but the top notes of my useable range... the G under high C, and surrounding notes.... have become laser beams, that I can fire off at *just about* any time. BUT, I don't even have a PLAYABLE high A just above that.
I was talking to a classical horn major who also plays jazz trumpet in a local cafe, and what he mentioned is that the start of strength and facility in the "upper register" is just by playing, playing, and playing there. Just building up muscle through playing as much as possible, and using the high register.
Is this the case?
Gives the impression that a lot of the exercises won't have as much effect as exclusively focusing on playing in the range one wants to improve. But what do you guys say? Is the start of gaining a high range simply from playing as much as possible up there? How does one get good at that if there's only lots of missed notes when trying that stuff?
Thanks |
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Lionel
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Its true,
You can take anyone, a total hacker even and teach him to blow G above high C. The problem of course will be that there is zero foundation below.
Or o/p has indicated that he has reasonable facility throughout the rest of his range. So it appears he is blocking the sound. In other words PHYSICALLY PREVENTING PRODUCTION OF THE UPPER REGISTER. He's just a slightly more limited example than normal.
Usually these limitations occur slightly higher. Around the second ledger line D treble clef. Regardless the cure seems to be making the upper lip softer in texture. This the reason so many good high note players announce that their lips are "relaxed". Okay they do flex the muscles around the mouthpiece rim but not inside it.
Stiffening the middle of your upper lip (the portion actually vibrating inside the mouthpiece) is "suicide" to the upper register. There's other matters which can block the tone as well.
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ATrumpetBrony
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds very to-the-point. I think I neglected to mention that I am close-to-certain I've discovered that method, where it's almost as if the notes SLIP themselves out on their own.
I've just never really practiced it much, as cool as it was/is to punch out "higher notes". I have been able to slur up through, f.ex., arpeggios on F# up to a C# over high C, but I'd need to start really using these exercises and training my system to understand the coordination aspect of making it all work.
So I haven't built up the coordination in my air/aperture/tongue at ALL, and ability to change aperture sizes to move around the whole range using that method hasn't developed there whatsoever.
It's kinda late here, sorry for the random ramble. I'll look more into those exercises... I use the PETE and do a lot of lip slurs and scales, so my endurance and power are pretty okay for how long I've been playing and how much I practice, but now I feel like it's time I put my sights on making up up that next whole-step.
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Lionel
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ATrumpetBrony wrote: | | I use the PETE and do a lot of lip slurs and scales, so my endurance and power are pretty okay for how long I've been playing and how much I practice, but now I feel like it's time I put my sights on making up up that next whole-step. |
The PETE is a fine tool/exercise. Keep in mind this one point however,
The muscles you strengthen with such isometric or weight lifting need to be separated in usage.
A. One set of muscles (the mouth corners, face, cheeks, outer lips and even nose) may firm up as much as you can contract them. However,
B. That portion of your upper lip which vibrates in the mouthpiece must stay soft and flexible.
So I urge those with range and strength problems to memorize both A & B. I call this "the segregation of muscle usage".
Neither the PETE nor the pencil exercise can create this distinction of muscle usage. Only you can do this. However once you finally understand this basic concept? Your range may just blossom uo to High G or higher in one short afternoon. This due partially to your newly strengthened facial muscles which the PETE helped develop and you insistence to use physical law for you. Unfortunately most trumpet players try to oppose physics. This is unintentional of course but regardless of intent you won't blow high notes unless you obey physical laws supporting range production. There are no exceptions to the rules of the universe.
Water seeks it's own level due to gravity. Just as trumpet players can't blow high notes on their teeth. Again, no exceptions. See?
You would be surprised at how fast the body responds when it finally figures out how to apply physics to trumpet playing. High notes really aren't that hard.
Dr William Moriarty has a great video explaining chops over at the Roy Stevens tribute site. In fact Moriarty really knows the Stevens system better than Roy did. Roy never seemed to understand that only a minority of his students could pull off the forward jaw embouchure setting. Which is a darned shame as other aspects of Stevens system are very helpful. Roy's insistence that one size fits all really devalued his approach over all. Despite this he had a great system.
Like listen to what Moriarty says about the difference between the way a beginner on a reed instrument starts out:
The teacher shows him how to apply the reed to the mouthpiece, how to properly adjust the ligature and insert the mouthpiece into the instrument. Like a clarinet.
Now compare the usual fare being taught the beginning trumpet player. The kid is usually told something like,
"Just set your lips to blow a raspberry with the mouthpiece set on your lips"
In not so many words this is how we're usually instructed to first generate a pitch. And yet by this very glib, and general statement we're essentially acting like a clarinet teacher who tells the child,
"Just put the reed and ligature together the way which seems best to you"
Of course we would never hear of this happening. Because there really is only one way, the correct way to align a clarinet or other reed to a wind instrument.
The difficulty here us that the trumpet player's "reed and ligature" is located in his mouth. We can't visualize what the student is doing and sometimes we don't really know what we're doing inside our mouths. However the way we put our teeth, and lips can have much to do with our how we advance on the instrument. Particularly concerning range.
To compound matters there are various correct ways to rig our chops for best results. Meanwhile the reed instruments have one way and just one way only.
As a trumpet player you might be inclined to blow with a receded jaw. Most of us are like this but exceptions exist and some powerful forward jaw trumpet players can do fantastic things. Like Jon Faddis, the late Bud Brisbois and Cat Anderdson. Each of these men can/could blow like magic but only a minority of us can make their kind of embouchure work.
Regardless of whether you're forward jaw or receded jaw a strong upper register to double C is always possible. And made far easier by applying physical law to your approach.
My problem has been getting people to realize this. That its not all that hard. I know that a video will help greatly and its in the works. Meantime? Just keep the faith. Like I ssid,
Once you understand the physics and incorporate them with your teeth, lips and air support? Dont be surprised when you soin start banging out decent F's and G's. Its predictable.
In fact one interesting sign I see, especially on high school kids is the kind of tone they're getting in the upper register. I met with this fifteen year old trumpet playing boy last night. After his school Christmas concert. He started asking me about my mouthpiece (i make and alter mouthpieces so he noticed how different mine was). So I let him borrow one of my stock pieces and directed him to "play a high C and keep going up the scale until you can't go higher"
As he hits the high C his sounds starts splintering and losing power. He squeaks a few notes higher to a splintered F or so. A typical high school condition.
But as I watch and listen to him I can tell that he's not keeping his upper lip below his upper teeth! That is what causes maybe 98% of range limitations. In fact I would sound exactly the same way too myself if I kept my upper lip in it's natural setting. But I dont. Instead I just push down a little bit of my upper lip below my upper teeth. Not much, just a little. About an eighth of an inch is all.
If I don't perform the above task I will sound just like this range limited 15 y/old. This is the proof that by applying physical law we can always solve our range problems. Just by intentionally posituoning the chops so that they cant play high notes. And then correcting the matter and hearing the whole range result. Cause & Effect. Forget that I've been on the horn over fifty two years! I would sound exactly like this very bot who is stuck at high C. That's if I refused to apply physical law to the game. Just like 98% of his peers.
The difference between the other 98% is that they're wholly unaware of the very physical laws which limit their range to high C. Or in the case if the O/P to the first ledger line A.
However long ago I was fortunate enough to be told what I just told everyone here. Just keep a tad bit of upper lip meat below your upper teeth. So it has a chance to vibrate.
"You can't play on your teeth" was probably the most valuable saying ever offered by a brass teacher.
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Pops
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Is it just muscle? |
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| ATrumpetBrony wrote: |
I was talking to a classical horn major who also plays jazz trumpet in a local cafe, and what he mentioned is that the start of strength and facility in the "upper register" is just by playing, playing, and playing there. Just building up muscle through playing as much as possible, and using the high register.
Is this the case?
Gives the impression that a lot of the exercises won't have as much effect as exclusively focusing on playing in the range one wants to improve. But what do you guys say? Is the start of gaining a high range simply from playing as much as possible up there? How does one get good at that if there's only lots of missed notes when trying that stuff?
Thanks |
Yes but not for the reason you think.
Strength is a minor part.
Learning the feel is a larger part.
Mastering the control is everything.
You could do all of the strength building exercises possible, pencil, pete... and others but that won't develop the feel or the control.
You could play 5 hours a day but always stop at the top of the staff and in 20 years you would still have a range to the top of the staff. That also never develops the feel or the control.
You have to play those notes and try to play more of them every week.
If you want high c to sound like low c then you have to eventually play as many high cs as you have played low cs.
(Seriously.)
Most people really didn't think about how or what to practice and don't have a routine that matches the goals they have. They tend to practice things that feel good and that my friend is the status quo and only maintains what you already have.
Why do you think every range book ever written asks you to play high notes and to play more of them every week?
The answer to your problem is the same as the answer to that question.
I have students that started with 2-3 notes above the staff a day and now play over 1,000 high notes a day. IT just takes some time (in months) and intelligent practice.
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Winghorn
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Great post, Pops!
Steve |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: Is it just muscle? |
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| ATrumpetBrony wrote: | | the top notes of my useable range... the G under high C, and surrounding notes.... have become laser beams, that I can fire off at *just about* any time. BUT, I don't even have a PLAYABLE high A just above that. |
By G under high C do you mean the 2nd ledger line C or an octave over that - i.e. "double" C?
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ATrumpetBrony
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: Is it just muscle? |
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| Robert P wrote: | | ATrumpetBrony wrote: | | the top notes of my useable range... the G under high C, and surrounding notes.... have become laser beams, that I can fire off at *just about* any time. BUT, I don't even have a PLAYABLE high A just above that. |
By G under high C do you mean the 2nd ledger line C or an octave over that - i.e. "double" C? |
That'll be the question. I haven't really "broken" that high C (two ledger lines over the staff) yet. I wrote in another post a bit ago that I can squeal and squeak my way up to usually a D# on a normal day, F# or G over high C if I'm lucky.
Admittedly, I probably wouldn't have any issues with my range if it were that G over high C
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zaferis
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:59 am Post subject: |
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a great post from Pops!
and I love the sports analogy - to add one:
I just watched a video of the longest home runs - #1 was Jose Canseco, a huge man, #3 that was only a foot shorter was hit by Darryl Strawberry a tall slender man with a beautifully graceful swing.
You can muscle the notes out, but if you want to do it for a long time, work on the sweet swing.
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rufflicks
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rufflicks
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ATrumpetBrony
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the links, guys! Great information... I suppose the message is clear when it comes to experimentation and finding the "knack" for it.
Today, I didn't get the practice session that I should've, after watching these videos (and the ones following them), I decided to go ahead and start experimenting a little bit. I was sitting there and suddenly the thought popped into my head saying, "I feel like I could play a double G right now."
Played a couple of notes, got myself properly orientated, and suddenly squeaked up from a high E to a clear, in-tune mp G over high C.
I think I've got to start working more like this!
Testing this out showed that there IS in fact a knack that IS part physical, but also part mental. I've got to work on chop and air control, as well as confidence, like K.O. was saying. He did also mention NOT "caring", in a way, I think that's part of that confidence.
I think I've got a lot of the muscle needed to do it and play that stuff with power, but now I've got to figure out how to make the system work.
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| ATrumpetBrony wrote: |
I think I've got to start working more like this!
Testing this out showed that there IS in fact a knack that IS part physical, but also part mental. I've got to work on chop and air control, as well as confidence, like K.O. was saying. He did also mention NOT "caring", in a way, I think that's part of that confidence. |
For "this" to work, you can't be straining. If you're doing it right, those squeaks today will grow up into real notes. If you're straining, your whole system is likely to crash. Knowing what strain feels like when you don't yet have the knack is like trying to explain blue to a blind person. Some guidelines you may find useful include:
immediately take the horn off your face, and look at the inside of your lips in a mirror. This is a pretty truthful gauge of if you're pressing "too" hard;
does your throat feel tight? It is your TONGUE. Most likely you were creating more air flow than you could possibly use, and your tongue will often automatically restrict that. Much has been said on TH about how to use the tongue to properly channel the air into the embouchure, such that you avoid this pitfall. Pops was the first to coin the term "aperture tunnel," and his posts are excellent.
"Not caring" is a Zen approach many have used with much success. Learn to be aware of what actually comes out your bell, but only as a detached observer. This prevents you from beating yourself up over mistakes, which only serves to stop all learning. Stay focused on the desired result: the right note, yes, but every detail of the SOUND. This is very much part of what Bill Adam taught, and a particularly relevant quote of his here is
"trumpet is 90% mental, 9% air, and 1% everything else." Those numbers are not trying to be scientifically accurate, just to make a very important point! |
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:18 am Post subject: |
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To quote/paraphrase Yogi Berra:
Trumpet playing is 90% mental the other half is physical |
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| rufflicks wrote: | | This might be informational as well. |
Interesting how many people in the business of manufacturing innovative equipment are people who struggled to play. I think that's perfectly fitting! |
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marieritac@gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| Practice, Practice, Practice |
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