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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6159
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | Gartex wrote: | Lips stop buzzing because they touch the bottom of the cup! |
Or the sides of the cup. Any contact with the inner parts of the cup probably will stop or at least interfere with lip vibration, I don't think it matters whether it's the bottom or the sides.
Brad |
Not if the vibrating part is not touching the mouthpiece. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | Brad361 wrote: | Gartex wrote: | Lips stop buzzing because they touch the bottom of the cup! |
Or the sides of the cup. Any contact with the inner parts of the cup probably will stop or at least interfere with lip vibration, I don't think it matters whether it's the bottom or the sides.
Brad |
Not if the vibrating part is not touching the mouthpiece. |
The way I see it, some folks play with some amount of lip that extends into the cup but doesn't touch. If that same player increase pressure in a way that causes this portion of lip to touch the sides then the effect can be the same as bottoming out. For these players sometimes just a bit more undercut solves the problem. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | Brad361 wrote: | Gartex wrote: | Lips stop buzzing because they touch the bottom of the cup! |
Or the sides of the cup. Any contact with the inner parts of the cup probably will stop or at least interfere with lip vibration, I don't think it matters whether it's the bottom or the sides.
Brad |
Not if the vibrating part is not touching the mouthpiece. |
? My point was that if a part of the vibrating lip touches the side or bottom of the cup, that could interfere with vibration, I don't think it would matter exactly which part of the vibrating lip contacts anything deeper than the rim.
Did I misunderstand something?
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6159
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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If the vibration is happening at the inner aperture, contact of the mouthpiece with the outer part of the lip would change the tone but not necessarily stop the vibration. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2579
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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What's the depth of the shallowest pieces? As I say when playing just a visualizer rim which has a total thickness of about .3 inches/7.8 mm per my digital caliper I get no lip contact running a straight edge across it.
If I take a straight wire with a peak bent into it like this
___/\___
it has to protrude some distance into the visualizer to make contact with any part of my lips. In order to make any lip tissue protrude past the plane of the visualizer which I can just barely do, I have to contort my lips into a state that in no way resembles a playing configuration.
The point being for my lip to actually touch the cup it would have to be a heck of a shallow mp. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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According to the Reeves website the 43S (S = Shallow) has a cup depth of 0.215". The 43ES (ES = Extra Shallow) has a cup depth of 0.192". Back in the days when I played a 43S and wasn't bottoming out I ordered a 43ES to try. The 43ES was so shallow I was bottoming out from the day I received it. I ended up giving it away.
I play a 43D (D = Deep) now. Its cup depth is 0.265". I have no problems bottoming out with the 43D. Before I had the 43D I tried a 43M (M = Medium). The cup depth of the 43M is 0.242". I had no problems bottoming out with the 43M but I went to the 43D to get an even bigger sound than I was getting with the 43M. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2579
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | According to the Reeves website the 43S (S = Shallow) has a cup depth of 0.215". The 43ES (ES = Extra Shallow) has a cup depth of 0.192". Back in the days when I played a 43S and wasn't bottoming out I ordered a 43ES to try. The 43ES was so shallow I was bottoming out from the day I received it. I ended up giving it away.
I play a 43D (D = Deep) now. Its cup depth is 0.265". I have no problems bottoming out with the 43D. Before I had the 43D I tried a 43M (M = Medium). The cup depth of the 43M is 0.242". I had no problems bottoming out with the 43M but I went to the 43D to get an even bigger sound than I was getting with the 43M. |
That depth is measured from where? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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LakeTahoeTrpt Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 Posts: 120 Location: Portland Oregon
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Curiosity compelled me to look at this thread, as I wondered how there could be so many responses to what I have always thought of as a simple concept. Some players have more lip intrusion than others. Just because you have never experienced it does not mean it is not so, or that we need photographic evidence...
I experienced it once, and that was, as Lou said earlier, trying out a rim much wider than I was used to, with a cup much more shallow. I don't know whether my lips hit the side or the bottom, but they touched something, and I immediately knew what "bottoming out" felt like.
Hope that helps. _________________ Burbank Benge Bb MLP
Kanstul 1510 C
Benge Eb/D
Benge Flugelhorn 3X
Buescher 400 Model 275 Cornet
Curry Precision Mouthpieces |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2579
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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LakeTahoeTrpt wrote: | Curiosity compelled me to look at this thread, as I wondered how there could be so many responses to what I have always thought of as a simple concept. Some players have more lip intrusion than others. Just because you have never experienced it does not mean it is not so, or that we need photographic evidence...
Hope that helps. |
I'm incredulous as to how much you hope it helps - it sounds more like you're trying to sound imperious and above it all while trying to invalidate someone else's curiosity. As to whether "we" need photographic evidence - I missed who appointed you official spokesman for "we" and arbiter of inquiries. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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LakeTahoeTrpt Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 Posts: 120 Location: Portland Oregon
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Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:47 am Post subject: |
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I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, Robert. But when you quoted me, you edited out the part that I was referring to when I said I hoped it helps.
If you want to see what "bottoming out" feels like, find a mouthpiece much wider and much more shallow than what you are used to. Stuff your lips into it, if you are the type of player who doesn't play with much lip intrusion. When your lips touch the cup inside the rim, you will experience "bottoming out."
Hope that helps. _________________ Burbank Benge Bb MLP
Kanstul 1510 C
Benge Eb/D
Benge Flugelhorn 3X
Buescher 400 Model 275 Cornet
Curry Precision Mouthpieces |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2579
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Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:36 am Post subject: |
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LakeTahoeTrpt wrote: | I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, Robert. But when you quoted me, you edited out the part that I was referring to when I said I hoped it helps.
If you want to see what "bottoming out" feels like, find a mouthpiece much wider and much more shallow than what you are used to. Stuff your lips into it, if you are the type of player who doesn't play with much lip intrusion. When your lips touch the cup inside the rim, you will experience "bottoming out."
Hope that helps. |
Hurt feelings no, more on the order of annoyance over what I perceive as your tone as previously noted.
I don't totally disregard the possibility that it happens, allowing for factors I haven't experienced. Yes I'd be curious to see photographic evidence that this really happens when actually playing. Any photos I've seen of buzzing on a visualizer look like there's very little intrusion into the mouthpiece rim. Possible it happens when first setting up but not when the lips are actually tensed for playing?
I don't stuff my lips into the mp when playing. As previously noted - sure, by doing an exaggerated "kissing fish" pucker that in no way resembles how I play I can touch the cup with my lips. Yes, there are mp's I haven't played so I can't claim experience with all of them. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:10 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Edit: I took a long while to construct this post, owing to doing things in between, so hadn't read the posts above before posting
Robert P wrote: | What's the depth of the shallowest pieces? As I say when playing just a visualizer rim which has a total thickness of about .3 inches/7.8 mm per my digital caliper I get no lip contact running a straight edge across it.
If I take a straight wire with a peak bent into it like this
___/\___
it has to protrude some distance into the visualizer to make contact with any part of my lips.
Hi RobertP
To be honest, I can't quite work out how you are inserting this wire into the visualizer.
Regarding the visualizer, I presume you are referring to something along the lines of the following:
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-1824-Trumpet-Mouthpiece-Visualizer/dp/B0002DYCWC
Obviously the visualizer will have a diameter, rim contour and presumably a bite. I'm not sure from the pictures of the one to which I've provided a link, whether after the rim, a visualizer has an alpha angle into the top of a cup, or is just completely straight after the rim, since it is a visualizer rather than an actual mouthpiece.
I'm not sure to be honest whether a visualizer can really be used to measure lip intrusion, since if the visualizer also had initial slope into the top of the cup, this would prevent the observer from viewing the embouchure through the visualizer.
In order to make any lip tissue protrude past the plane of the visualizer which I can just barely do, I have to contort my lips into a state that in no way resembles a playing configuration.
The point being for my lip to actually touch the cup it would have to be a heck of a shallow mp.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by plane of the visualizer, but how far your lips intrude will probably depend on the cup diameter, rim contour and bite of the particular visualizer, which probably has the rim of a C cup rather than shallow cup. If you had a visualizer made of the rim taken from a large diameter very shallow mouthpiece, you may possibly see more lip intrusion.
Whatever, I think it is likely that you are a player who has little lip intrusion, as clearly if (to use your words) in order to make make any lip tissue protrude past the plane of the visualizer, you have to contort your lips into a state that in no way resembles a playing configuration, and that for the lips to actually touch the cup it would have to be a heck of a shallow mp, was true of everyone, nobody could possibly bottom out and we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.
Hopefully you won't see my post as being argumentative. I assure you that it really isn't my intention.
Rather than using a visualizer, have you thought about borrowing some bright lipstick, and looking for lip intrusion in different mouthpieces?
In my honest opinion, I think that is probably a stronger relationship between lip intrusion and alpha angle rather than lip intrusion and cup depth.
Take Care
Lou
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_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2579
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Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:09 am Post subject: |
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Louise Finch wrote: | Robert P wrote: | What's the depth of the shallowest pieces? As I say when playing just a visualizer rim which has a total thickness of about .3 inches/7.8 mm per my digital caliper I get no lip contact running a straight edge across it.
If I take a straight wire with a peak bent into it like this
___/\___
it has to protrude some distance into the visualizer to make contact with any part of my lips. |
Hi RobertP
To be honest, I can't quite work out how you are inserting this wire into the visualizer. |
Across the back side of the visualizer, the side the lips aren't in contact with. The straight part is on the backside of the visualizer, the pointy part protruding into the visualizer pointed at my lips.
Yes, same idea - rim on a stick, though the pic makes that one look like it has an oddly sloped rim shape. Mine is probably on the order of a 3C rim.
Quote: | Quote: | In order to make any lip tissue protrude past the plane of the visualizer which I can just barely do, I have to contort my lips into a state that in no way resembles a playing configuration.
The point being for my lip to actually touch the cup it would have to be a heck of a shallow mp. |
I'm not quite sure what you mean by plane of the visualizer, |
Same as described with the wire with the point bent into it above - i.e. take the edge of a credit card and slide it across the opposite side of the visualizer that the lips are in contact with.
Quote: | Hopefully you won't see my post as being argumentative. |
Not at all. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:45 am Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | Louise Finch wrote: | Robert P wrote: | What's the depth of the shallowest pieces? As I say when playing just a visualizer rim which has a total thickness of about .3 inches/7.8 mm per my digital caliper I get no lip contact running a straight edge across it.
If I take a straight wire with a peak bent into it like this
___/\___
it has to protrude some distance into the visualizer to make contact with any part of my lips. |
Hi RobertP
To be honest, I can't quite work out how you are inserting this wire into the visualizer. |
Across the back side of the visualizer, the side the lips aren't in contact with. The straight part is on the backside of the visualizer, the pointy part protruding into the visualizer pointed at my lips.
Hi RobertP
I understand now. Thank you very much for the clarification.
Yes, same idea - rim on a stick, though the pic makes that one look like it has an oddly sloped rim shape. Mine is probably on the order of a 3C rim.
Again, thank you very much for the clarification.
Quote: | Quote: | In order to make any lip tissue protrude past the plane of the visualizer which I can just barely do, I have to contort my lips into a state that in no way resembles a playing configuration.
The point being for my lip to actually touch the cup it would have to be a heck of a shallow mp. |
I'm not quite sure what you mean by plane of the visualizer, |
Same as described with the wire with the point bent into it above - i.e. take the edge of a credit card and slide it across the opposite side of the visualizer that the lips are in contact with.
I understand. Thank you very much again.
Quote: | Hopefully you won't see my post as being argumentative. |
Not at all. |
Thank you very much.
Take Care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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