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MikeGreeninger
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Joined: 26 Jul 2016
Posts: 67
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 Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:14 am Post subject: Leadpipe Vibration Deadener |
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Hello Everyone,
I recently have been working on attempting to reduce some of the excess vibration on my horn because it was hurting my endurance. I contemplated buying one of those mouthpiece weights but I don't like the idea of having the attachment go on the mouthpiece directly. After looking around a bit I decided to make one that would attach directly to the leadpipe.
I started out with some 3/4 brass bar I had lying around cut off a somewhat random size piece
Next I chamfered the edges and bored a hole through the middle that was a little larger than the section of leadpipe I was going to put it over.
Next you drill and tap the holes.
And finally you split it in half and using a few strips of rubber (cut up rubber bands) for padding you attach it to the leadpipe.
Hope you all enjoy
-Mike |
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Benge.nut
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Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Wow, cool work. Let us know how it plays and what it does.
Looks like a spacey sprocket  |
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Steve Hollahan
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Joined: 05 Oct 2005
Posts: 519
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:42 am Post subject: Bob Reeves receiver weight |
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Bob Reeves has a weight/focus tool for end of receiver. Check his website for details. Works well on my Bach C.
Vibrations can be caused by a lot of problems, any broken braces or unsoldered braces?
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Steve Hollahan
Bach 37, 229 C
Yamaha 9620 D-Eb, 741 C, Flugel
Kanstul 900 piccolo trumpet
Sculptured Recrafting Custom Instrument Repair
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MikeGreeninger
Regular Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2016
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Bob Reeves receiver weight |
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| Steve Hollahan wrote: | Bob Reeves has a weight/focus tool for end of receiver. Check his website for details. Works well on my Bach C.
Vibrations can be caused by a lot of problems, any broken braces or unsoldered braces? |
When I replaced the bell I removed the horizontal brace because it improved the tone (from my perspective). I rerouted the brace to be set on the first valve slide but that just wasn't cutting the vibration enough. Here is a picture of my current brace set up for perspective.
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Benge.nut
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Joined: 18 Mar 2017
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| I thought vibration was a good thing? Isn't that what creates resonance? |
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MikeGreeninger
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Joined: 26 Jul 2016
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | | I thought vibration was a good thing? Isn't that what creates resonance? |
I don't know if it is just me, but when my leadpipe vibrates it kills my endurance and I can only play for around an hour. I agree that vibration in the bell is a good thing, but when it is in the leadpipe it causes problems for me. This might just be a personal thing and not apply to other players.
-Mike |
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Benge.nut
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Joined: 18 Mar 2017
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeGreeninger wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | | I thought vibration was a good thing? Isn't that what creates resonance? |
I don't know if it is just me, but when my leadpipe vibrates it kills my endurance and I can only play for around an hour. I agree that vibration in the bell is a good thing, but when it is in the leadpipe it causes problems for me. This might just be a personal thing and not apply to other players.
-Mike |
Never thought of it, or experimented with leadpipe. I've had weighted mouthpieces and sound sleeves, and weight caps. Got away from all of it. Too many variables were making me CRAZYYY!! |
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TKSop
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Joined: 23 Feb 2014
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Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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It's probably too basic a thought to be the case... but I do find that when something is loose somewhere that can cause excessive amounts of vibration that I don't care for.
That can be something as obvious as valve caps or buttons, waterkey screws...
Or it can be nothing obvious at all - a friends Neo cornet had a phantom vibration that you could definitely feel at certain pitches and volumes and it could be quite disconcerting, no other Neo I've played had that issue and everything obvious was as tight as it should have been, there were no obviously bad solder joints or anything like that either. |
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TKSop
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Bob Reeves receiver weight |
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| MikeGreeninger wrote: |
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Interesting - it's a long way from a stock horn, certainly...
Perhaps the bracing (or lack thereof) is contributing to the feeling that the pipe is vibrating too much?
Have you tried bracing the leadpipe to the 1st valve casing (as on a Schilke E3L, for example)?
Is the leadpipe also reversed? Is there any kind of leadpipe-bell brace at that end of the horn? |
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etc-etc
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Joined: 19 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Mike, this device of yours looks great!
| TKSop wrote: | It's probably too basic a thought to be the case... but I do find that when something is loose somewhere that can cause excessive amounts of vibration that I don't care for.
That can be something as obvious as valve caps or buttons, waterkey screws...
Or it can be nothing obvious at all - a friends Neo cornet had a phantom vibration that you could definitely feel at certain pitches and volumes and it could be quite disconcerting, no other Neo I've played had that issue and everything obvious was as tight as it should have been, there were no obviously bad solder joints or anything like that either. |
That phantom vibration could be caused by an incompletely soldered rim wire. |
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Locutus2k
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Joined: 01 Feb 2006
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Location: Rome, Italy
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:55 am Post subject: |
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You should try Lefreque, it works wonders with no mass addedd (just a tiny bit) and, from my perspective, no negative side effects, only positive.
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VetPsychWars
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Location: Greenfield WI
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:49 am Post subject: |
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Take a look at the Buescher 400 and its 1937 contemporaries... the mouthpipe and bell are soldered directly to the valve block.
Tom
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1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
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yourbrass
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Joined: 12 Jun 2011
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Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Bob Reeves receiver weight |
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| MikeGreeninger wrote: |
When I replaced the bell I removed the horizontal brace because it improved the tone (from my perspective). I rerouted the brace to be set on the first valve slide but that just wasn't cutting the vibration enough. Here is a picture of my current brace set up for perspective.
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Mike,
You are a skilled machinist, that's for sure.
Your Olds trumpet looks like an Ambassador. Did you remove the three-point braces that connect the 1st and 3rd valve casings to bell and leadpipe? They greatly strengthen the construction and without them, it could increase extraneous and unwanted vibration.
-Lionel
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ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
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Danbassin
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Joined: 13 Oct 2013
Posts: 460
Location: Idyllwild, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| TKSop wrote: | | It's probably too basic a thought to be the case... but I do find that when something is loose somewhere that can cause excessive amounts of vibration that I don't care for. |
To this, and also the comment about vibration equaling 'resonance,' as I say to my music survey classes, the preposition for Harmony is "with." You want all the parts of the horn vibrating in a resonant manner - complementary, if you will - but when something's abuzz and out of whack, it can wreak havoc on our ability to make music, due to cancellation frequencies and relationships. These are felt by us, the player, two fold, since a seemingly random few notes would have wildly different response issues, but stray vibration also interferes with what we hear behind the horn --- this impacts the signal we end up sending through the horn!
A currently-market product which I've noticed in use by the great European soloist, Marco Blauuw, and for sale domestically by the Horn Trader --- http://www.horntrader.com/28-lefreque-sound-bridge-for-wind-instruments --- this so-called "sound bridge" attempts in a much more general way to address some of the issues of the OP for this thread. The Reeves receiver 'tone rings' referred to in another post are manufactured brand-specific for some leading manufacturers, but I truly respect the craftsmanship and direct process of identifying an acoustic issue then crafting a targeted solution from our Original Poster.
-DB
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Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD |
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Winghorn
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Location: Olympia, Washington
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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I tend to trust the skill of the original instrument designer, and avoid add-on gimmicks.
Sticking on lumps of mass here and there on a trumpet can, admittedly, change the sound, intonation and response of an instrument. But after trying all the heavy bottom caps, mouthpiece sleeves, "tone enhancers" and the like in my early years of playing, I realised that, for me at least, change is not always good.
But if you believe these types of additions make you a better player, I say go for it.
Steve |
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MikeGreeninger
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Joined: 26 Jul 2016
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Bob Reeves receiver weight |
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[quote="yourbrass"] | MikeGreeninger wrote: |
Did you remove the three-point braces that connect the 1st and 3rd valve casings to bell and leadpipe? They greatly strengthen the construction and without them, it could increase extraneous and unwanted vibration.
-Lionel |
I still have those two braces, but the 2 point braces that are at the base and front of the bell were removed in part to facilitate the over under leadpipe. This latest addition seems to have resolved the issue, but I will keep messing around to see if there is anything else I can change.
-Mike |
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Winghorn wrote: | I tend to trust the skill of the original instrument designer, and avoid add-on gimmicks.
Sticking on lumps of mass here and there on a trumpet can, admittedly, change the sound, intonation and response of an instrument. But after trying all the heavy bottom caps, mouthpiece sleeves, "tone enhancers" and the like in my early years of playing, I realised that, for me at least, change is not always good.
But if you believe these types of additions make you a better player, I say go for it.
Steve |
I agree with you. All of these add-on gadgets are a testament to the difficulty inherent in learning to play the trumpet with proficiency: There are a lot of efforts to blame problems on the mechanics of the horn and mouthpiece and come up with mechanical miracle cures for everything.
I'm all for technological advancements and some of these gadgets may have some degree of merit but they tend to shift the focus away from the necessity of developing skill. In order to play the trumpet with proficiency you have to step up and do the physical things necessary to achieve that result. You don't play the trumpet with levers, pulleys, wheels, counterweights and mythical clam traps that filter out bad notes and replace them with good notes.
You may be able to change some things about a horn and mouthpiece with gadgets but no gadget attached to a trumpet or mouthpiece will ever make a great player out of a poor player.
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yourbrass
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Bob Reeves receiver weight |
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[quote="MikeGreeninger"] | yourbrass wrote: | | MikeGreeninger wrote: |
Did you remove the three-point braces that connect the 1st and 3rd valve casings to bell and leadpipe? They greatly strengthen the construction and without them, it could increase extraneous and unwanted vibration.
-Lionel |
I still have those two braces, but the 2 point braces that are at the base and front of the bell were removed in part to facilitate the over under leadpipe. This latest addition seems to have resolved the issue, but I will keep messing around to see if there is anything else I can change.
-Mike |
Olds made about 1 million horns before shutting down. They did lots of R & D in developing these designs that they made for decades. The design you are changing is well thought out, so you may have to really work to even make it as good as original. Good Luck!
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"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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kevin_soda
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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Think about the shortest physical distance between you and the end of the bell and how you're going to create the most efficient path from one to the other. If you remove the conduit from the leadpipe to the bell, you're forcing the sound wave to stay in the leadpipe farther before resonating outward. I don't believe your leadpipe would have enough mass to efficiently carry the wave, thus you have sonic leakage in the form of vibration. Your fantastic work at creating a dampening device is very impressive but I'm afraid it might cause you to work harder as a trumpeter. I would consider replacing the brace from the receiver to the bell.
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Winghorn
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| What? |
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