Sticky valve question?

lexluther · Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:06 am Post subject: Sticky valve question?

I have a horn that has an issue that I can't figure out. Upon initial observation this horn seems like the valves work fantastic. The problem arises after I oil the valves. Valve number 2 will stick under air pressure only. With no air pressure the valve works perfect. Interesting though, the problem will work itself out after a considerable amout of playing. After I re-oil, the problem restarts. I took the horn in for a professional bath and service and it's still the same. The Trumpet is made by Blessing for Austin Winds, it is a 460 LT. Anyone ever experience this before? I like the Trumpet but the sticky valve has got to be fixed. Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
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dstdenis · Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:54 am Post subject:

A few possibilities for you to consider:

If the instrument is brand new, the valves will probably be really tight. Frequent cleanings, wiping down the valves with a clean, lint free cloth, and thin valve oil will help as the valves break in.

It could be that your valve oil is just too thick, and you need a thinner formula.

Second valves sometimes get sticky after the instrument has been laid down with the second valve slide facing down. (Don't ever do that!) This can bend the part where the slide joins the valve casing, distort the casing and make the piston stick. Brass techs can fix this.
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zaferis · Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:26 am Post subject:

Could be all sorts of things, including more than one issue: from less than stellar manufacturing, wear, incompatible oil, dirty valve/casing, to bad hand position-pushing the valve at an angle or pushing/pulling on the cap when depressed...

Clean, wipe, lube... if it's still an issue, look for a techician or well versed professional to check for mechanical issue(s).
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Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

Have you tried putting a little pressure on the second valve slide? If it has been laid down, or in shipping got pressure on the slide, it could have goofed up the valve casing a bit.

And some times it just takes relieving the pressure with a little "nudge" on the 2nd valve slide, pushing it in the direction AWAY from the horn to free up the valve.

That's happened to a few horns I've had over the years. Even from just keeping my horn in a soft gig abg, and the 2nd valve slide just got a little wonky. And a little pressure relief solved the problem. Might be worth a try before going to a repair shop.

lexluther · Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:52 am Post subject:

Hey, thanks for the replies! I have tried several oils which didn't seem to fix the problem. I try to be straight down with my fingering. I believe this is a unique issue with this horn, as none of my other horns have this problem. After I cleaned the horn, I took it to the local shop and had them clean it too, I thought maybe I missed something. I am interested in Benge's theory. When you say 2nd valve slide, do you mean the small loop on the valve that comes out?
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Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML

lipshurt · Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:39 am Post subject:

Bad valve fit. Use thicker oil
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Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

_Daff · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431

lexluther · Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:25 pm Post subject:

Daff, interestingly enough, I do use a solid amount of oil. How many drops is enough?
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Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML

_Daff · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431

One or two small drops does the job for me. Capillary action apparently distributes that small amount quite adequately.

The fact that your problem dissipates/disappears after playing a good while suggests that over-oiling might just be the culprit, certainly was in my case.

lexluther · Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:42 am Post subject:

Thanks so much to you all. I will report back on if it works or not. I applied a small amount of pressure to the 2nd valve slide. Also, I have been over oiling and will cut the oil way back. I really hope these tips work. If not I guess I will seek out a repair shop in the Chicago area.
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Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML

Larry Smithee · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 4399

You have two basic options.

1. Send the horn to a pro repair guy to evaluate and repair. Dr. Valve, for example.

2. Get rid of the horn. Valves should not have these kinds of problems. Simple home remedies will not fix the problem. Valve issues are the worst. Move on.

Most likely this problem originated at the Blessing factory.

Dennis78 · Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:43 am Post subject:

I wouldn't mess with bending metal but over oiling can cause problems with certain oils.
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Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

Before getting to worried about "bending metal" which I never said, take a look at this video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=POxpfT_R5uU

I'm talking about relieving pressure, not "bending" anything.

Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

Here's another video. Although I wouldn't use the third valve slide for "leverage" but the idea of relieving pressure from the 2nd valve slide being slightly askew is the idea I'm trying to convey

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=upPVny_TBv0

lexluther · Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:03 am Post subject:

Larry, I fear you are absolutely correct. For now, I am going to be optimistic and hope less oil can fix it.
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Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML

lexluther · Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:49 pm Post subject:

Hey everyone, I wanted to give it some time to see how the horn reacted. I put some pressure in the second valve slide, and started using the oil that came with the horn (much less of it too). And I'm happy to report that the valve hasn't stuck since! I think I dodged a bullet here, the horn is playing great! Thanks to everyone that had suggestions on how to fix!
_________________
Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML

1jazzyalex · Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:03 pm Post subject:

This makes me wonder if that's why certain student horns made a while back had the 2nd valve slide sticking straight out, with a sturdy brass "cap" on them too. Being straight out would protect from 99% of simple acts of placing the horn down on that side.
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LittleRusty · Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:04 pm Post subject: