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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:06 am Post subject: Sticky valve question? |
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I have a horn that has an issue that I can't figure out. Upon initial observation this horn seems like the valves work fantastic. The problem arises after I oil the valves. Valve number 2 will stick under air pressure only. With no air pressure the valve works perfect. Interesting though, the problem will work itself out after a considerable amout of playing. After I re-oil, the problem restarts. I took the horn in for a professional bath and service and it's still the same. The Trumpet is made by Blessing for Austin Winds, it is a 460 LT. Anyone ever experience this before? I like the Trumpet but the sticky valve has got to be fixed. Thanks in advance for any thoughts. _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:54 am Post subject: |
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A few possibilities for you to consider:
If the instrument is brand new, the valves will probably be really tight. Frequent cleanings, wiping down the valves with a clean, lint free cloth, and thin valve oil will help as the valves break in.
It could be that your valve oil is just too thick, and you need a thinner formula.
Second valves sometimes get sticky after the instrument has been laid down with the second valve slide facing down. (Don't ever do that!) This can bend the part where the slide joins the valve casing, distort the casing and make the piston stick. Brass techs can fix this. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2331 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Could be all sorts of things, including more than one issue: from less than stellar manufacturing, wear, incompatible oil, dirty valve/casing, to bad hand position-pushing the valve at an angle or pushing/pulling on the cap when depressed...
Clean, wipe, lube... if it's still an issue, look for a techician or well versed professional to check for mechanical issue(s). _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
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Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Have you tried putting a little pressure on the second valve slide? If it has been laid down, or in shipping got pressure on the slide, it could have goofed up the valve casing a bit.
And some times it just takes relieving the pressure with a little "nudge" on the 2nd valve slide, pushing it in the direction AWAY from the horn to free up the valve.
That's happened to a few horns I've had over the years. Even from just keeping my horn in a soft gig abg, and the 2nd valve slide just got a little wonky. And a little pressure relief solved the problem. Might be worth a try before going to a repair shop. |
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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Hey, thanks for the replies! I have tried several oils which didn't seem to fix the problem. I try to be straight down with my fingering. I believe this is a unique issue with this horn, as none of my other horns have this problem. After I cleaned the horn, I took it to the local shop and had them clean it too, I thought maybe I missed something. I am interested in Benge's theory. When you say 2nd valve slide, do you mean the small loop on the valve that comes out? _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
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Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:44 am Post subject: |
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lexluther wrote: | Hey, thanks for the replies! I have tried several oils which didn't seem to fix the problem. I try to be straight down with my fingering. I believe this is a unique issue with this horn, as none of my other horns have this problem. After I cleaned the horn, I took it to the local shop and had them clean it too, I thought maybe I missed something. I am interested in Benge's theory. When you say 2nd valve slide, do you mean the small loop on the valve that comes out? |
Yep. The slide that comes out of the 2nd valve casing, is the second valve slide. If the horn had been laid down on the side of the horn with the slide, it's possible that the pressure had slightly effected the valve casing, which in turn adds pressure to the piston and may cause it to hang up.
Pushing the slide, very gently, away from the trumpet, may reduce that pressure and corrrect the fit and stopping the piston from hanging up.
Give it a try, but be only use a very minute amount of pressure while checking the piston movement at the same time. You don't wanna push too hard and create a new problem!! |
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_Daff Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431
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Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Sticky valve question? |
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lexluther wrote: | I have a horn that has an issue that I can't figure out. Upon initial observation this horn seems like the valves work fantastic. The problem arises after I oil the valves. Valve number 2 will stick under air pressure only. With no air pressure the valve works perfect. Interesting though, the problem will work itself out after a considerable amout of playing. After I re-oil, the problem restarts. I took the horn in for a professional bath and service and it's still the same. The Trumpet is made by Blessing for Austin Winds, it is a 460 LT. Anyone ever experience this before? I like the Trumpet but the sticky valve has got to be fixed. Thanks in advance for any thoughts. |
Dan, crazy as it sounds, I discovered that mere over-oiling of snugly fitted valves produced this effect, same scenario you describe, valve hang occurring only while moving air through the horn after re-oiling. I think that the oil causes such a tight barrier that a suction or vacuum effect is created when air moves through the instrument.
I used to drench my valves, but now apply a minimal amount of oil to that horn, in fact, to all of them. Problem solved. |
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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Daff, interestingly enough, I do use a solid amount of oil. How many drops is enough? _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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_Daff Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431
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Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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One or two small drops does the job for me. Capillary action apparently distributes that small amount quite adequately.
The fact that your problem dissipates/disappears after playing a good while suggests that over-oiling might just be the culprit, certainly was in my case. |
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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Thanks so much to you all. I will report back on if it works or not. I applied a small amount of pressure to the 2nd valve slide. Also, I have been over oiling and will cut the oil way back. I really hope these tips work. If not I guess I will seek out a repair shop in the Chicago area. _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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Larry Smithee Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 4399
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:37 am Post subject: |
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You have two basic options.
1. Send the horn to a pro repair guy to evaluate and repair. Dr. Valve, for example.
2. Get rid of the horn. Valves should not have these kinds of problems. Simple home remedies will not fix the problem. Valve issues are the worst. Move on.
Most likely this problem originated at the Blessing factory. |
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Dennis78 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 673 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:43 am Post subject: |
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I wouldn't mess with bending metal but over oiling can cause problems with certain oils. _________________ a few different ones |
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Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Before getting to worried about "bending metal" which I never said, take a look at this video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=POxpfT_R5uU
I'm talking about relieving pressure, not "bending" anything. |
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Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Here's another video. Although I wouldn't use the third valve slide for "leverage" but the idea of relieving pressure from the 2nd valve slide being slightly askew is the idea I'm trying to convey
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=upPVny_TBv0 |
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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Larry, I fear you are absolutely correct. For now, I am going to be optimistic and hope less oil can fix it. _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Hey everyone, I wanted to give it some time to see how the horn reacted. I put some pressure in the second valve slide, and started using the oil that came with the horn (much less of it too). And I'm happy to report that the valve hasn't stuck since! I think I dodged a bullet here, the horn is playing great! Thanks to everyone that had suggestions on how to fix! _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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1jazzyalex Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jun 2016 Posts: 569 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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This makes me wonder if that's why certain student horns made a while back had the 2nd valve slide sticking straight out, with a sturdy brass "cap" on them too. Being straight out would protect from 99% of simple acts of placing the horn down on that side. _________________ Yamaha 8335LA with Blessing 3C, 5C, Schilke 11A4A |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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1jazzyalex wrote: | This makes me wonder if that's why certain student horns made a while back had the 2nd valve slide sticking straight out, with a sturdy brass "cap" on them too. Being straight out would protect from 99% of simple acts of placing the horn down on that side. |
Actually, IMO, with the slide sticking out further I would guess it would be more likely, not less. |
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