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bassguy
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 Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:35 pm Post subject: WICKS 4BFL & 4FL FLUGELHORN MOUTHPIECE ADVICE |
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7 weeks ago I took up JUST the flugelhorn after loosing interest in the trumpet (too bright!) early in 1982. I find with the flugelhorn its not the same type of embouchure. To make a sound I have to actually pucker my lips into the massive V cup.. The point is that its not just a matter entirely of regaining an old skill via muscle memory, but partly aquiring a new skill.I find that the flugelhorn wants to be played in the low register, but as you go up it requires lots more air. (One reliable THF user tells me the opposite, but even in a YouTube video of Jimmy Owens--playing My Funny Valentine--deonstrating the flugelhorn to Billy Taylor,Owens said the instrument requires far more air as its bigger than the trumpet).
I have made decent progress but had a small set back from to much practicing last week. Subsequently the new Curry 7 FL-M mouthpiece I got feels cramped relative to the DW 4FL I have. On that particular mouthpiece I am aquiring a lot more control & have a pretty solid G above the staff, yet my endurance is very limited. I do get quickly fatigued playing the flugelhorn.
That DW 4FL sounds so wonderfully deep, fat & resonant, as it nicely compensates for my inherently lean sound. (My guitarist noticed an audible resonance peak in the 4 FL that imparts a greater "presence" (his term) than the Curry 7 FL, even though it is darker sounding overall.) I am loosing interest in the Curry mpcs because of that. But that 4 FL has such a deep V cup it sounds more like a surreally fat & rubust french horn. I love it, but I need a more "all purpose" mpc. to get me a step closer to a more.....generic flugelhorn sound. I just sent away to Dillon for the 4FL's little brother, the 4B FL. I anticipate that it should be nearly as fat & resonant, but with a shallower cup might get me one small step closer to a brighter generic jazz flugelhorn sound, but facilitating a higher range & less fatiguing.
I cant predict or count on anything. The 4B FL might be a dud. If thats the case it"s back to Curry. The truth is that even though the Curry 7s & DW 4s spec out with a 16.5mm inner rim, the Wicks is actually larger, based on the rim conture & the manner in which it's measured. Even the Dillon sales staff would verify that to me (ME would not even discuss it!) Dillon confirmed that to get a similar feel with a Curry you have to go with somethimg between a 5 (16.7mm) or a 3 (16.9mm) 7 it will never feel quite the same.So, it might be a 5 FL-M next if the 4B FL isnt what I hope.
I want some feedback from DW 4B FL & 4 FL users. After 7 weeks is my G above the staff good, even though I cant hit too many in a row? I realize everyone is different, but I'd like to get a sence of what kind of endurance & range limitations others have with that huge V cup, more than an inch in depth. Anyone using the 4BFL have maor limitations but put up with them because of the great sound? I set a high D (as in Mangione's 'Feel so Good') as my high--range watemark ---though it can be transposed down a third or so.
Those using both Wicks & Curry: do you find the feel of the inner rim of the Wicks 4 is most easily matched by the Curry 7, 5 or 3? (I also know many THF users dont like the Wicks rim at all, but it's definately my cup of tea) |
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etc-etc
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| I prefer 2FL to 2BFL. |
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HornnOOb
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| etc-etc wrote: | | I prefer 2FL to 2BFL. |
+1 The Wick 2FL gives me exactly the sound I was hoping to find with a Flugel.
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I rode in on a horse and can't seem to get out of L.A.
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1971 Getzen Eterna 900S Severinsen Model
1984 Getzen Eterna 896 Flugelhorn
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trumpet56
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| HornnOOb wrote: | | etc-etc wrote: | | I prefer 2FL to 2BFL. |
+1 The Wick 2FL gives me exactly the sound I was hoping to find with a Flugel. |
+2 Likewise. |
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brassmusician
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I have played both for a number of years. The 4Fl I used in jazz combo successfully, it worked well with wick 3E I used on trumpet. Ended up moving to the 4BFl when I started playing in the brass band for help with endurance. It was a good compromise and a lot easier to play than the 4Fl. These days I am doing my jazz combo work on an old bach 10.5CF, get a nice sound and very efficient on long gigs. It is also an easy swap from the 12A4a I am using a lot on my trumpet. |
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Richard III
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:29 am Post subject: |
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Which flugelhorn are you playing?
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Richard
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bassguy
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | Which flugelhorn are you playing? |
I am playing a cheap Chinese made Hawk flugelhorn. It has been rated hughly in reviews here, TMF & Amazon.com as one of the best Chinese hirns--no flagrant intonation issues. "Pinstriper " has one. It does depart from the traditional French style flugelhorn with its .460 bore. Many complain about those trumpet sized bores sounding too trumbonish & not "fluffy" Like the .409" counterparts. But my sound is inherently lean, & sounding trumbonish isn't problematic. I tried out a Getzen .421" bore 3985 from Music 123 & sent it back as the hawk sounds fatter & blows more freely.
* my small sound had always been a problem with teachers. One teacher really got up my a$$ about my sound & told me to think BIG, while playing long tones. I did, & developed a beautiful dark far tone, but it desteywd my flexibility & endurance because of an artificially wide aperture. That issue, along with another ostentatious embouchere change set me back a long time. After getting a first rate teacher (after studying with some celebrities who were stumped, but tried their best) I got my old embouchure & mojo back, & my new teacher told me we all must work with what we have, but my sound wasn't entirely that small anyway. (By then I had a Bach number 1 mpc & sounded better than ever, & my teacher urged me to consider a Shilke George Mager mpc. The size was compensatory but seemed to enhance flexibility & endurance as well)
Last edited by bassguy on Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:10 am; edited 2 times in total |
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bassguy
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| etc-etc wrote: | | I prefer 2FL to 2BFL. |
I find the FL a little too dark & want to have at least one more with a closer to generic jazz sound. I like the FL but if you accent a note it doesn't get brighter. Did you find the B FL too bright?
Last edited by bassguy on Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bassguy
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| brassmusician wrote: | | I have played both for a number of years. The 4Fl I used in jazz combo successfully, it worked well with wick 3E I used on trumpet. Ended up moving to the 4BFl when I started playing in the brass band for help with endurance. It was a good compromise and a lot easier to play than the 4Fl. These days I am doing my jazz combo work on an old bach 10.5CF, get a nice sound and very efficient on long gigs. It is also an easy swap from the 12A4a I am using a lot on my trumpet. |
I'm glad you acknowledged that the switch to the 4B FL was endurance related. The 4 FL is tiring. I am plannig on playing a total of 6 numbers max in a 30 number set list. If you we're playing that little, would you compromise the tone with the Bach 10.5CF.
MORE IMPORTANTLY, how much extra range did you get going to the 4B FL from the 4 FL? |
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Richard III
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I am playing a cheap Chinese made Hawk flugelhorn. It has been rated hughly in reviews here, TMF & Amazon.com as one of the best Chinese hirns--no flagrant intonation issues. "Pinstriper " has one. It does depart from the traditional French style flugelhorn with its .460 bore. Many complain about those trumpet sized bores sounding too trumbonish & not "fluffy" Like the .409" counterparts. But my sound is inherently lean, & sounding trumbonish isn't problematic. I tried out a Getzen .421" bore 3985 from Music 123 & sent it back as the hawk sounds fatter & blows more freely. |
Okay, that explains much of what you are experiencing with the different mouthpieces. Much of what we say about flugelhorns assumes a small bore. Such as delicate playing, easier playing, doesn't take much air etc. I went back and looked and I haven't played a large bore flugel since the 70's and can't even remember what it was like.
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GuidoCorona
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Bassguy, I wonder if Warburton FL-M might work for your needs... Why not talk to the consultants at Dillon, and ask them how its character and blow in the upper register contrasts with the Curry FL-M.
Regards, G.
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bassguy
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | Quote: | | I am playing a cheap Chinese made Hawk flugelhorn. It has been rated hughly in reviews here, TMF & Amazon.com as one of the best Chinese hirns--no flagrant intonation issues. "Pinstriper " has one. It does depart from the traditional French style flugelhorn with its .460 bore. Many complain about those trumpet sized bores sounding too trumbonish & not "fluffy" Like the .409" counterparts. But my sound is inherently lean, & sounding trumbonish isn't problematic. I tried out a Getzen .421" bore 3985 from Music 123 & sent it back as the hawk sounds fatter & blows more freely. |
Okay, that explains much of what you are experiencing with the different mouthpieces. Much of what we say about flugelhorns assumes a small bore. Such as delicate playing, easier playing, doesn't take much air etc. I went back and looked and I haven't played a large bore flugel since the 70's and can't even remember what it was like. |
Because of that rather short section of a small bore, do you think that generally ones range can be higher on a .415 bored FH? I've already alluded to Jimmy Owens video in which he tells Billy Taylor that the flugelhorn requires more air than a trumpet. but Owens plays a .460 bore Alexander |
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