View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
jmichaelhurt Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 Posts: 288
|
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:26 am Post subject: Catholic Church gigs |
|
|
Anyone out there gig at catholic church's where you have to become an employee of the church to get paid? Did your hourly rate equal the same pay as the per service rate you were getting? The unpaid training sessions and paperwork are a bit ridiculous if you ask me. Seems like some churches require it while others don't. Am curious about your experience with this. _________________ Bach C with Butler conversion
Various Frankenhorns
Wedge mouthpieces
Brass repair tech at Ken Stanton Music |
|
Back to top |
|
|
gjarrell Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2010 Posts: 175 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
|
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
Employment isn't required in Grand Rapids at the Cathedral. Seems like an exceptional requirement. Being Catholic isn't a requirement either. None of the musicians are EEs except the music director. _________________ Glenn
"When you play, make a statement. Don't ask a question." - Prof. Fielder |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Lawler Bb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2002 Posts: 1143 Location: Milwaukee, WI
|
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
About two years ago I had to submit my information to be paid via direct deposit. Technically, I think this means that I'm an employee, but I didn't have to go through any training or be paid hourly. I only play there a few times a year, and each time I get paid in the amount I've always received (but now taxes are taken out). _________________ Eric Sperry
www.ericsperry.com
www.facebook.com/EricSperryTrumpet/
www.instagram.com/milwaukeetrumpet/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Richard A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 724 Location: Rhode Island, USA
|
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:49 am Post subject: Church Gigs |
|
|
I've played at at least four churches and have always been paid as a contractor.
If they pay you $600 or more in a year they are required to issue a Form 1099, so they may ask you to fill out a Form W9, but that's the most I've ever had to do. _________________ Richard Ashmore
I am a Mechanical Engineer and have many years of Social Distancing experience. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8938 Location: Orange County, CA
|
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Catholic Church gigs |
|
|
jmichaelhurt wrote: | Anyone out there gig at catholic church's where you have to become an employee of the church to get paid? |
Not that I recall. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
|
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Nope. But each pastor can set rules for how his parish does things like this, or have the parish administrator do that. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
|
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
If you earn more than a certain amount a year, and with frequency you pass some limit to be paid as a contractor, and have to be paid as an employee for tax reasons.
Depends on their accountants, how big a Church they are, and what if any financial troubles they may be going through.
If had to fill out 1099 forms and be paid as an employee before. Rare but not unheard of. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8348 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
|
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
Nope. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
|
Back to top |
|
|
andybharms Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 May 2009 Posts: 635 Location: Boston, MA
|
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ah, the crazy freelance things I've done...
I've had to go through payroll fairly often, and sometimes that means wait times of a month or two-- but no employee training. These days, I am lucky in that I sort of get to shy away from work that doesn't have a "check on the stand." Not that I'm in a hurry, but I've had some nightmare gigs that take 2-4 months to pay out or had to follow up a bunch, and even gotten stiffed a couple of times (a church and a state institution... nothing is sacred, it seems). I will leave that risk to others..
I remember one time I was contracted for a small fee to accompany some "church hymns"... $100 or something like that for a rehearsal and the Sunday. I picked up the music a day or two before and "church hymns" turned to to be Bach Mass in B minor. I told them to double it and they said no, so I had to walk, and then they had no concert. I just wasn't willing to do that piece without getting paid for the countless hours of practice, the expensive piccolo trumpet, all of the lessons, etc. I was so insulted by their dishonesty (or ignorance). I would encourage other trained musicians to be willing to 'walk away' from a bad deal like that. I would rather a young musician do the $10/hr barista deal and keep their expensive, highly specialized training at its highest possible dollar, than take those $30 calls... we've got to do a better job of finding monetary value in what we do...
But in either case, it definitely reflects poorly to keep their contractors waiting, and, well, they mostly get what they pay for. _________________ Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9143 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have jumped through hoops on occasion to teach, adjunctly, at Catholic churches but never as a player.
Riffing off of another comment, I am a graduate of The Catholic University and performances, especially big ones at the Basilica, are superb, and yet I can guarantee you that players are from various backgrounds and faiths, (or none). _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Selmer K-Modified Light Trumpet (for sale)
Benge 3X Cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jmichaelhurt Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 Posts: 288
|
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have played at this church many times over the last 8 years or so and it's always been the typical setup; get asked to play knowing how much it pays, play the gig, check comes to me in the mail a week or two later. Would love to have the check waiting at the last service but I'm fine with waiting a couple weeks as long as I know that going into it. I'll get the 1099 and pay the taxes and that's that.
All of a sudden they contact me about the next round of gigs and throw in that the church is changing the employment status of musicians and now I have to go to a 3 hour training session which is unpaid and meet with the employment person to go over my paperwork. I'll now be paid an hourly rate and have to fill out a time card. I'll be paid via direct deposit as well. The music director gave me a dollar amount for the hourly rate but is not 100% sure if it's accurate(yet another thing that pisses me off)
So far I haven't found anyone who has to do this for their gigs at Catholic Churches. Friends are saying it's a ploy to ultimately pay me less. I'm not sure how it's going to work out but I'm willing to see for this round and if it doesn't work out in my favor I have no problem finding another gig. _________________ Bach C with Butler conversion
Various Frankenhorns
Wedge mouthpieces
Brass repair tech at Ken Stanton Music |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1414
|
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
If you're an employee, then they should be paying you for a mandatory three-hour training session. Depending on the details, it's likely a legal requirement for them to pay you. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5701 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
|
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
jmichaelhurt wrote: | All of a sudden they contact me about the next round of gigs and throw in that the church is changing the employment status of musicians and now I have to go to a 3 hour training session which is unpaid and meet with the employment person to go over my paperwork. I'll now be paid an hourly rate and have to fill out a time card. I'll be paid via direct deposit as well. The music director gave me a dollar amount for the hourly rate but is not 100% sure if it's accurate(yet another thing that pisses me off). |
If that happened to me at the Catholic church where I've been gigging the last couple of years, I'd end my relationship with them. That's not how I do business, and I wouldn't put up with that - I'm not going to go to an unpaid training class to do the kind of playing I've been doing for decades. My situation is a bit different though - in the last couple of years I've gotten back into that gigging scene, and at this point I'm turning down church gigs, so I know I can find somewhere else to play that won't have me jumping through those kinds of hoops.
I've been 1099'ed by churches, and I've also had to wait to get money in the mail, but I don't mind that. I'd mind the whole time-clock thing.
You may be able to tell them that you don't work that way - you play based on a fee rather than on some other setup. But, you have to be willing to walk away if they won't play ball. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
|
Back to top |
|
|
hose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 1854 Location: Winter Garden, FL
|
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
It sounds like that church has been advised by their attorney to cover their butt in all matters with people who work in the church. i.e. if there would be a lawsuit and you're even remotely involved, they've done their job by training you in proper behavior. .....And since you're a trumpet player, all the more reason for them to be cautions. _________________ Dave Wisner
Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1414
|
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
But did the attorney cover their cassocks on the subject refusing to pay employees for work required by the job? _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
|
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
I presume that the church is responding to some government mandate (federal, state or local).
In my own church I have watched how some new or ambiguous government regulation or court decree drives the church to an accountant or lawyer to seek practical guidance, only to receive a recommendation that could only make sense to the numbskulls in Washington, D.C.
I'm not Catholic, but I am quite sure that the church is doing its best to appease our government overlords.
I hope that my post isn't crossing the line for religious or political comment.
Regards,
Grits _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
gstump Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 934
|
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
This seems very strange. Lots of terms being used here.
-1099 is for non-employees (independent contractors)
-W-4 is filled out by employees for tax deductions
-W-2 is sent to employees by employers with year end earnings
Most employment lawyers try to avoid granting employee status in the USA.
Employees must receive employer side social security, medicare payments, unemployment insurance coverage and workers compensation insurance coverage.
Additionally, the personal policies, if not expertly written (by lawyers) could grant the promise of continued employment. So again, unless they are saving lots of money by short changing the musicians, this is very weird.
Cheers,
Gordon Stump _________________ Schilke B5
Couesnon Flug (1967)
Funk Brothers Horn Section/Caruso Student |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2537 Location: Cope, IN
|
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
jmichaelhurt wrote: |
All of a sudden they contact me about the next round of gigs and throw in that the church is changing the employment status of musicians and now I have to go to a 3 hour training session which is unpaid and meet with the employment person to go over my paperwork. I'll now be paid an hourly rate and have to fill out a time card. I'll be paid via direct deposit as well. The music director gave me a dollar amount for the hourly rate but is not 100% sure if it's accurate(yet another thing that pisses me off) |
It is against the law to make required attendance at any event (now labeled through their own negligence training events) without paying your for your time. Anything required as a requirement for employment (training meetings, etc.) must be paid. Now they can only pay you a training wage (which I believe the minimum is minimum wage per hour), but they must pay you for your time. If they are thinking that any lawsuit that might occur can remove them because they trained you, they are mistaken. Unpaid training is not considered valid nor legal in eyes of the court. Training, in order to be valid, must be paid.
Changing to an hourly rate must be viewed as suspect and approached with care. They can legally do that, but you are free to decline that. Remember that if they pay you as an employee, they must pay taxes from your check and on their own for your presence. To me, it looks as though someone has a little knowledge of employment law, but just enough to open a can of worms they probably don't realize they are opening. _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tomcherv Regular Member
Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 33 Location: Saint Paul, MN
|
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Are they asking you to take the VIRTUS "Protecting God's Children" training?
Anyone who works or volunteers (at least in my archdiocese) is supposed to take the training. Volunteers would be unpaid, not sure about employees.
Because I'm a scout leader and have taken the Youth Protection Training, I was exempt from VIRTUS when I provided my certificate. Again - this is for our archdiocese; not sure if other archdiocese offer this. _________________ Tom
St. Paul, MN
Benge Bb
Benge Piccolo
Buescher Flugelhorn |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9143 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
tomcherv wrote: | Are they asking you to take the VIRTUS "Protecting God's Children" training? |
I think that's what I took to teach part-time. No skin off my nose. Didn't agree with everything but kept my mouth shut. I don't see this as a big problem. Inconvenience, yes. Big problem, no. (Maybe I missed something.) _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Selmer K-Modified Light Trumpet (for sale)
Benge 3X Cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|