So,e people's needs only warrant buying a Hyundai or a KIA. And they get from point A to B just fine.
Want a little more quality, better parts and labor, buy a Honda or a Toyota.
Still want even better quality, better handling and improved performance, get into a Audi or higher end VW or top of the line Lexus or Acura.
A fine vintage US made car is also a way to go, but finding one in great performance condition is going to get expensive. A cherry 69 Mustang or big muscle Dodge or a GTO in mint condition will cost as much as a new car or more.
Got money to burn? Maybe a high end Italian sports car is your end goal. Where every minute detail is painstakingly focused and improved
.....see where I'm going with this?
You get what you pay for. Is a cheap Chinese flugelhorn a playable instrument? Sure. Is it quality or long lasting, or does it have any resale value? About the same as a used KIA in comparable pricing and resale vale and market demand.
Would I ever own a Chinese flugelhorn or a Hyundai?? No way. I'd prefer to have a better investment for my money. Even if to just resell someday.
Why not skip a couple nights out at a fancy restaurant or by store name instead of name brand groceries for a couple months, and you'll have the extra cash to buy a decent quality respectable instrument instead of buying an instrument with questionable quality and little to no resale value, and performs....like a cheap Korean car?
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5682 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:44 am Post subject:
I guess it just depends on each person's personal situation and their own desires for what they want out of it.
I'm currently using a Chinese flugel in the way of an ACB Doubler. I've used this horn for the last 3 years and while it's not the best flugel I've used, it's more than adequate. And let me be clear - I gig with this horn. I make money with this horn. It gets me where I need to go.
I've recently had the opportunity to A/B this horn with a genuine article of what it was cloned from - a Yamaha 631 that is owned by my National Guard band unit. They look amazingly similar, and they play similarly too - the Yamaha is a bit more open and maybe a touch darker, but the intonation is pretty much the same.
The only thing I have found to be a bit odd between the two is that the bell on the Yamaha is a touch bigger - it fits almost perfectly on my K&M 5-leg flugel stand, and the ACB Doubler doesn't quite fit - it's just a touch tight further in the bell.
At some point I may get another horn, but for now, the ACB Doubler gets me where I need to go. As others have said, it's kind of "disposable" - if/when I do get something else, I'll probably pass this on to one of my HS kids from the jazz band I work with. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
You're probably right. Especially if your making money with your flug. And I like the idea of passing it along to a high school student getting their first horn.
I guess my old school nostalgia for all thing American and European from years passed just prevent me from even considering a Chinese instrument. When I was a kid Japanese instruments were considered garbage, and now they're a premium. The Chinese stuff when it first was coming into the States were just awful, and I suppose they are getting better and better.
Lots of professionals are playing Carol Brass, and other Asian stuff. But I just long for the days of great american and European workmanship and still have pride when something says "Made in the USA". Although with the exception of Kanstul and some small boutique trumpet makers in the US I can't think of anything modern in the USA I'd consider buying new in current days.
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5682 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:12 am Post subject:
Benge.nut wrote:
You're probably right. Especially if your making money with your flug. And I like the idea of passing it along to a high school student getting their first horn.
I guess my old school nostalgia for all thing American and European from years passed just prevent me from even considering a Chinese instrument. When I was a kid Japanese instruments were considered garbage, and now they're a premium. The Chinese stuff when it first was coming into the States were just awful, and I suppose they are getting better and better.
Lots of professionals are playing Carol Brass, and other Asian stuff. But I just long for the days of great american and European workmanship and still have pride when something says "Made in the USA". Although with the exception of Kanstul and some small boutique trumpet makers in the US I can't think of anything modern in the USA I'd consider buying new in current days.
I should probably have qualified my post by saying that at the time I got the ACB Doubler, I had a pretty limited budget, but I had found myself in a spot where I kind of needed something, so I got the Doubler as sort of a stop-gap measure until I could get into something else.
The "problem" is that it's a decent flugel - if it played poorly, I'd be motivated to get rid of it, but it doesn't play poorly at all. It's not nearly the flugel that my Kanstul 925 was - THAT was one sweet flugel - but it it gets the job done.
I've been on a Taiwanese horn for the last couple of years - a Jupiter 1600i - but I recently snagged a deal for one of the early B&S made Sonare 800s with the Blackburn leadpipe. I'm looking forward to that - I don't typically buy horns without trying them first, but I thought I could probably make an exception with this one. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Joined: 29 Dec 2014 Posts: 120 Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:50 am Post subject:
Benge.nut wrote:
So,e people's needs only warrant buying a Hyundai or a KIA. And they get from point A to B just fine.
Want a little more quality, better parts and labor, buy a Honda or a Toyota.
Still want even better quality, better handling and improved performance, get into a Audi or higher end VW or top of the line Lexus or Acura.
A fine vintage US made car is also a way to go, but finding one in great performance condition is going to get expensive. A cherry 69 Mustang or big muscle Dodge or a GTO in mint condition will cost as much as a new car or more.
Got money to burn? Maybe a high end Italian sports car is your end goal. Where every minute detail is painstakingly focused and improved
.....see where I'm going with this?
You get what you pay for. Is a cheap Chinese flugelhorn a playable instrument? Sure. Is it quality or long lasting, or does it have any resale value? About the same as a used KIA in comparable pricing and resale vale and market demand.
Would I ever own a Chinese flugelhorn or a Hyundai?? No way. I'd prefer to have a better investment for my money. Even if to just resell someday.
Why not skip a couple nights out at a fancy restaurant or by store name instead of name brand groceries for a couple months, and you'll have the extra cash to buy a decent quality respectable instrument instead of buying an instrument with questionable quality and little to no resale value, and performs....like a cheap Korean car?
When last did you drive a Hyundai or a Kia? I'd buy either if those any day rather than a VW. Dollar for dollar, better quality and much better value for money. Your prejudice against them is based on what they produced twenty years ago (or perhaps more accurately, what you read about what they produced twenty years ago).
Same goes for many of the better quality Chinese horns. Try some before judging! _________________ B&S Challenger 1 3137
Courtois 113ML
B&H Imperial Flugel
Besson USA 620 cornet
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 Posts: 218 Location: Southern U.S.
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:19 am Post subject:
Well, here's why I'm considering a Chinese flugel:
I need a flugel very occasionally when the music calls for it and for taking a solo every once in a while. I don't play a whole lot of flugel.
I've had the same Getzen Eterna flugel since 1978. They were all the rage back then, but frankly I've never really liked the horn that much. It's too deep sounding. It's probably better for more of a classical setting but when playing jazz on a flugel, every once in a while you want to go up around high D or E. When playing "Feels So Good," there's that D that has to be played all of the time and the Getzen flugel starts getting stuffy with anything above an A. I've tried a couple of different mouthpieces with it and it doesn't help. When I've tried out other peoples' Yamahas, I don't have that problem. The Yamaha plays a little more like a trumpet and the D sounds and feels better on it. So I'm thinking of ditching the Getzen but I don't want to spend a whole lot of money since I don't play a whole lot of flugel. So I'm considering the Chinese horn.
Is a cheap Chinese flugelhorn a playable instrument? Sure. Is it quality or long lasting, or does it have any resale value?
You're going to hate me - I got double what I paid for a Chinese stencil flugel I sold on Ebay mentioned previously in this thread. In fact I got well over $100 more than the original Buy It Now price I had on it.
I attribute it in part to including a video sample playing a ballad on it taking care to make a solid recording to eliminate the pig-in-a-poke factor. Even with the generic unmarked Chinese mouthpiece which is what I used to make the video it sounded pretty decent. Some guy got it for his son who was in jazz band in high school.
A couple of years later the one I kept hasn't had any issue with the valves. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8336 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:46 pm Post subject:
gabriel127 wrote:
Well, here's why I'm considering a Chinese flugel:
I need a flugel very occasionally when the music calls for it and for taking a solo every once in a while. I don't play a whole lot of flugel.
I've had the same Getzen Eterna flugel since 1978. They were all the rage back then, but frankly I've never really liked the horn that much. It's too deep sounding. It's probably better for more of a classical setting but when playing jazz on a flugel, every once in a while you want to go up around high D or E. When playing "Feels So Good," there's that D that has to be played all of the time and the Getzen flugel starts getting stuffy with anything above an A. I've tried a couple of different mouthpieces with it and it doesn't help. When I've tried out other peoples' Yamahas, I don't have that problem. The Yamaha plays a little more like a trumpet and the D sounds and feels better on it. So I'm thinking of ditching the Getzen but I don't want to spend a whole lot of money since I don't play a whole lot of flugel. So I'm considering the Chinese horn.
Lots of the Chinese horns and the shop horns - Dillon, Austin Custom Brass - seem to be versions of the Yamaha 631/731 .433 bore flugels, so that's good for your plan. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 543 Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:31 pm Post subject:
These "no-name" Chinese manufactures do, in fact, have names. I think we'd be better served by using actual brand names in this thread than using the blanket "Chinese" or "Asian" to describe every horn that comes out of a region with ~2 billion people.
Intellectual property is not strictly enforced in China, so there are several copies of popular designs (and also factory seconds) are being sold by companies without long-standing reputations, that will likely disappear before the year is out. This is not a new phenomenon, and there were fly-by-night American companies turning out unplayable junk before that.
I'm not going to go down the list but you can open up a Downbeat magazine to see who's playing what these days, and several of the top-ranked players are playing horns from Taiwan, Korea, Japan, etc. You may not like player X, but he/she is touring all over the world and making a lot of money doing it...so there must be something right with that horn.
To anyone suggesting Chinese/Korean/Japanese = inferior quality, then I suggest that person actually try an XO, Carol Brass, P. Mauriat horn, instead of just speculating based on rumors & prejudices.
I think this thread really boils down to "you get what you pay for," more than any nationality of manufacture. Really, what's being discussed is; how little can we spend on a rarely-played instrument before we regret our purchase. Somebody let me know who wins. _________________ New Album "ensemble | in situ" on Bandcamp
These "no-name" Chinese manufactures do, in fact, have names. I think we'd be better served by using actual brand names in this thread than using the blanket "Chinese" or "Asian" to describe every horn that comes out of a region with ~2 billion people.
Intellectual property is not strictly enforced in China, so there are several copies of popular designs (and also factory seconds) are being sold by companies without long-standing reputations, that will likely disappear before the year is out. This is not a new phenomenon, and there were fly-by-night American companies turning out unplayable junk before that.
I'm not going to go down the list but you can open up a Downbeat magazine to see who's playing what these days, and several of the top-ranked players are playing horns from Taiwan, Korea, Japan, etc. You may not like player X, but he/she is touring all over the world and making a lot of money doing it...so there must be something right with that horn.
To anyone suggesting Chinese/Korean/Japanese = inferior quality, then I suggest that person actually try an XO, Carol Brass, P. Mauriat horn, instead of just speculating based on rumors & prejudices.
I think this thread really boils down to "you get what you pay for," more than any nationality of manufacture. Really, what's being discussed is; how little can we spend on a rarely-played instrument before we regret our purchase. Somebody let me know who wins.
The reason why they are referred to as "Chinese Flugelhorns" or whatever is because there are so many different manufacturers with names that really aren't established.
Many of those companies make the same identical horn with several different American or European sounding "stencil" names, with no meaning, engraved on the bel. Which causes confusion and recognition issues.
Some of the more known names like Carol Brass are starting to gain notoriety. But for every Carol Brass instrument there are countless more with little to no name recognition or reputation to speak of.
Prejudice and stereotypes are usually born in reality and there are reasons behind them. Like I said earlier, when I was a kid Japanese stuff was garbage, and now is a premium. Korean and instruments from Taiwan are getting better, and Chinese is lagging just behind them. I assume because of supply and demand they will all improve.
As for now, they are a hit or miss investment, and obviously it's up to the buyer/player.
The Flügel is a very forgiviving instrument. You can get by with a Chinese one. (I've only played the one that Dillon music offers, but I heard it's sourced from the same factory as Trent austins) they play pretty well in the showroom. All of the vintage Flügels and Chinese Flügels are funky with quirky intonation and these are no different. Most Flügels are a Drag when they Write unison lines with a flute, or have you playing low g's with a trombone section. There are a lot of newer makes that have spot on intonation but the question is do you want to blow $1500+ on an instrument you don't play everyday.
The only problem I have with cheap Flügels is the valves tend to get sticky and if you go months without playing it and then drag it out to the gig you are going to be worried that the valves are going to jam up on you. ive always had crappy Flügels and ive been solely a professional player for the last 20 years. A couple of years ago I ldecided to upgrade. I really liked the vintage one, eclipse, kanstul and newer yamahas. I wound up getting a great deal on a Yamaha 8310z and I've been really happy with it and wished I had gotten one ten years ago.
So I guess what I'm saying is that as long as you pay attention to your valves every few days and are prepared to lip the heck out of a few things you can get by with a Chinese Flügel but nothing beats the peace of mind in having a good one.
I don't care what difference mike or room makes, I can still tell sheer playability and musicality and know which tool I'd prefer. Assuming cost were no matter, of course
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:30 pm Post subject:
gabriel127 wrote:
and then you have these enterprising people in the US who have their own names engraved on them, mark up the price and sell them as their own.
Am I wrong?
In the case of ACB, yes you are wrong. Trent does at least a valve alignment, which can make a huge difference in a case like this.
gabriel127 wrote:
We already know that Lynn Nicholson has gotten an Asian manufacturer to make a horn to his specs and stamp his name on it. He promises to test every horn himself before allowing it to get into a customer's hands, but let's face it, if any of us bought a horn from a no-name manufacturer in China, wouldn't we have our own ability to play-test it and send it back if we got a bad one?
No. Asian manufacturers are widely known as not honoring such things and there's nothing you can do about it, whereas a distributor like Lynne or Trent handles enough volume to get a reasonable response.
You can risk it and maybe come out ok, but you've never played another of that same model so you have no idea if it is sub-par or standard. It's like the wild west
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:43 pm Post subject:
Benge.nut wrote:
Although with the exception of Kanstul and some small boutique trumpet makers in the US I can't think of anything modern in the USA I'd consider buying new in current days.
Getzen is pretty close in size to a boutique maker if you look at personnel devoted to one line of one instrument, and is making some GREAT stuff, priced right. Schilke is about the furthest thing from a slouch. Then there's all the great boutique makers.
Price is the only reason to go Asian made. Europe has their fans, what with Thein, Schagerl, Eclipse and Taylor. If we keep beating up the Euro we may even see some of them here?
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:56 pm Post subject:
lakejw wrote:
Really, what's being discussed is; how little can we spend on a rarely-played instrument before we regret our purchase.
I think it's more like people looking for great value, due to market penetration and no brand recognition. B & S Challenger used to be exactly that, but once they established themselves with both quality and consistency they raised their price until there was no savings. Carol Brass seems to have begun that price increase, too.
Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 444 Location: Australia
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:20 am Post subject:
razeontherock wrote:
I think it's more like people looking for great value, due to market penetration and no brand recognition. B & S Challenger used to be exactly that, but once they established themselves with both quality and consistency they raised their price until there was no savings. Carol Brass seems to have begun that price increase, too.
Yes, have noticed this too.
CarolBrass have my support 100%, because they are great value for money, AND a great product.
If their prices start to become on par with everyone else, then the choice becomes much less defined, as there are so many good horns available.
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:39 am Post subject:
The thing about the Chinese manufacturers is you can order various specifications of quality. This is why they may look roughly the same but be different.
I can remember turning down a J Scherzer trumpet because they were cheap imports from the GDR.... _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Joined: 29 Dec 2014 Posts: 120 Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:02 am Post subject:
GordonH wrote:
The thing about the Chinese manufacturers is you can order various specifications of quality. This is why they may look roughly the same but be different.
I can remember turning down a J Scherzer trumpet because they were cheap imports from the GDR....
B&S were also cheapies from the GDR once...
Some of the Chinese manufacturers probably could make horns on par with the best, but they could never - and should not try to - compete against the top-level brands in the top price brackets. Given the choice between a Bach or Yamaha and a Chinese horn in the same price bracket, 9 out of 10 people (including myself) would choose the brand without really comparing the quality. But at the lower price brackets they could be very competitive (as CarolBrass already is). _________________ B&S Challenger 1 3137
Courtois 113ML
B&H Imperial Flugel
Besson USA 620 cornet
Joined: 18 Dec 2004 Posts: 80 Location: Hannover, Germany
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:07 am Post subject:
GordonH wrote:
I can remember turning down a J Scherzer trumpet because they were cheap imports from the GDR....
Scherzer Trumpets originate and earned their reputation from the GDR, respectively the town of Markneukirchen, which is the cradle of high quality brass instrument manufacturing in Europe.
The point being for a fraction of the cost of boutique horns the Chinese horns can work fine. I don't doubt those Andy Taylor flugels will sound different than the stencil wonderhorn but the video you've linked to isn't a direct apples to apples comparison. Bill has a great sound - a large part of his sound is due to his somewhat unusual high placement embouchure and approach. He's also using a very different mp - a Denis Wick 4FL. When I play my current stencil wonderhorn with that 4FL there's big difference in the sound compared to the no-id mp that comes with the horn. And yes, he's using a different mic setup and it's close-mic'd. All those factors matter. I've watched other videos of Andy Taylor flugels - they don't sound the same.
Quote:
I don't care what difference mike or room makes, I can still tell sheer playability and musicality and know which tool I'd prefer. Assuming cost were no matter, of course
You feel you can hear playability? Hmm. What would you think of that Phat Boy if this was the only example you'd ever heard? Do you hear sheer playability here?
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