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Learning Jazz by Ear


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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
Benge.nut wrote:
Stream of consciousness, landscapes, colors hahahahahaha oh boy...

Nobody here has been aguing in favor of stream of consciousness, landscapes, and colors, whatever they may be, but I guess it's easier for you to vanquish yet another spectre from Trumpet Sanity's Big Book Of Strawmen than to understand why mastery may involve moving beyond theory classes.


Read the thread..these were all terms thrown around by different folks in this thread.

And I don't think "Straw Man" means what you think it means.

Theory and study is the foundation of being able to co pose or improvise. Just being an "ear player" with absence of "irrelevant or in the box" theory and study is just lazy...not artistic.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But like I said, there's always room for ear players "mastering" their art on subway platforms and city parks and street corners....as it's easier to play with yourself when you're unable to communicate with other players.

You can even get some cymbals to crash together with your knees, or one of those small kick bass drums to pound out quarter notes to keep time. A regular one man band!!!! Have at it!!
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mm55
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one-man band on the subway platform. Another straw-man vanquished!
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Croquethed
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I go back to the OP's desire to "really develop his ear" and find myself flummoxed by the ensuing altercations. I don't have enough information as to his experience or instructional background to make any coherent suggestion beyond listen a lot and play a lot. Listening and playing music you enjoy but that isn't too far above your ability is an absolute necessity. So at some point something simple, even like Saints, you can approach in your own vocabulary by saying, "OK, I'll play a little 6-5 (D-C if you start on F, for example) after the first phrases," or "Hey, a 6-8 sounds OK in there right before the last phrase."

What I've discovered locally is the total lack of pedagogical resources for players just starting out in wanting to play by ear and improvise a little who are either comebackers like myself or who perhaps have never quit playing but who have been limited to sight reading and have never learned any theory. There are no jazz open mics here. I can jump up and play a riff here or there on Ring of Fire or Call Me the Breeze, but in terms of an experienced player who can provide real guidance beyond "play some Aebersold," I haven't seen any in jazz. And, Skype and whatnot aside, I think the "same room" experience would be key there.

Maybe the OP should assess his current ability level and look into a summer jazz camp where he can immerse himself into things for a week. I don't think he's looking to play professional gigs. I may be mistaken.
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oljackboy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I heard Randy and Mike Brecker playing with Horace Silver at the Laurel Jazz Festival. I think it was in 1968. They both sounded excellent, as you can easily imagine. Thing is, Mike was 15 years old at that point. And he played like, well, Mike Brecker.
I know the value of music theory as applies to improv. No question about it.
That does not explain to me why most of the great jazz players I have personally known could do it when they were very young. Well before they had studied theory in any real depth.
Just my opinion, but it seems as if you need both: a solid background in theory and a great natural ear.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oljackboy wrote:
I heard Randy and Mike Brecker playing with Horace Silver at the Laurel Jazz Festival. I think it was in 1968. They both sounded excellent, as you can easily imagine. Thing is, Mike was 15 years old at that point. And he played like, well, Mike Brecker.
I know the value of music theory as applies to improv. No question about it.
That does not explain to me why most of the great jazz players I have personally known could do it when they were very young. Well before they had studied theory in any real depth.
Just my opinion, but it seems as if you need both: a solid background in theory and a great natural ear.


Children learn to speak their native language before they can read their native language. They learn to speak their native language by hearing it and imitating the sounds they hear. As they progress in imitating they attach meaning to the sounds.

The process of hearing sounds, imitating those sounds and attaching meaning to those sounds is a learning process, a process of assimilation. People can ultimately become very fluent in speaking their native language on that basis alone, without ever learning to read their native language, without having any knowledge of the mechanics.

Music is sound just like language is sound. People can become very fluent in jazz improvisation by the same process by which they became fluent in speaking their native language: By imitating and assimilating.

The great jazz artists take it a step further: They use their imagination to go beyond what they have imitated and assimilated: They innovate.

These are time honored concepts. Clark Terry used the words Imitation, Assimilation and Innovation to describe the process of becoming proficient in jazz improvisation.

Here's a link:

http://www.jazzadvice.com/clark-terrys-3-steps-to-learning-improvisation/
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: Learning Jazz by Ear Reply with quote

nate_baca wrote:
I have been interested in learning to play jazz for awhile now and was recently reading Paul Berliner's "Thinking in Jazz". In it, he mentions a 10-step method that Lee Konitz described to learn songs. He starts with having the person learn the tune, then over a series of steps, has the musician embellish more and more until the musician reaches the point of playing "an act of pure inspiration".
I am wondering if anyone has any more information about this method and what a typical progression looks like from a trumpeter's perspective?
I really want to develop my ear so that I can learn more and play more from what I hear.


Ear training is an essential element in playing any style of music. There are many books and methods devoted to developing the ability. Konitz method is one way.
Practicing scales is another way, provided you can reproduce the SOUND of the scales in your mind. One way to do this is to sing each scale. "Patterns For Jazz" by Jerry Cocker et al is an excellent source for chord and scale exercises. Remember to play and sing each exercise. "Trumpetology" by Pat Harbison is another book that helps get your head into the sound.
Transposing melodies, not by lines and spaces, but by ear is another great way to develop the ability to play what you hear. Play Happy Birthday in all 12 keys. First Book of Practical Studies by Getchell/Hovey is a good resource for melodies to transpose. Or any song that you like. Just start on a different note and work it out by ear.
www.learnjazzstandards is another resource. Select a song from the index; the chords are shown, but you have to learn the melody from a linked
you-tube audio. Once you have learned the melody try to learn the solo(s). When practicing these tunes you must be able to play/sing the chord tones and the scales that relate to each. There is also a backing track for each tune you can use to improvise and play the melody with.
If you want a good dose of all of this I would highly recommend the Jamey Aeberold Summer Jazz Workshops.
Final word of advice; Don't let the negativity displayed on this thread in any way deter your interest in playing Jazz and improvising. There really are no wrong notes. Some just feel better than others.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oljackboy wrote:
I heard Randy and Mike Brecker playing with Horace Silver at the Laurel Jazz Festival. I think it was in 1968. They both sounded excellent, as you can easily imagine. Thing is, Mike was 15 years old at that point. And he played like, well, Mike Brecker.
I know the value of music theory as applies to improv. No question about it.
That does not explain to me why most of the great jazz players I have personally known could do it when they were very young. Well before they had studied theory in any real depth.
Just my opinion, but it seems as if you need both: a solid background in theory and a great natural ear.


Michael and Randy grew up in a very musical environment in Philadelphia. Randy studied with Sigmund Hering when he was in high school. Their dad was a semi-pro jazz pianist. They had great Philly jazz musicians showing them chord changes and basics of jazz harmony as kids.

But most importantly, in 1968 (the year you cite) Michael was a student at Indiana University (also Randy's college. He studied trumpet with William Adam.). While neither stayed long enough to obtain a degree, both studied jazz theory, harmony, improvisation, etc. with Jerry Coker and David Baker. Michael didn't move to NYC until late 1968 or early '69. They both joined Horace's band in the late '60s-Randy first and then later, Michael. At that point they were in their early to mid 20s.

So, as the Breckers prove, it is indeed an aural art, but theory, scale knowledge, pattern practice, etc. enhances one's aural skills. That doesn't mean that everyone who is teaching or studying chord/scale theory, etc is going after it in the most effective way, but you don't judge an approach by the crappiest practitioners.

We don't forget how to speak when we learn to read and write. In fact, literacy makes us better verbal communicators.

As BillyB says above, there is no better way to get a concentrated dose of this kind of teaching at the highest level than attending a Jamey Aebersold Summer Jazz Workshop.
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nate_baca
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am overwhelmed by the responses to this post! Thank you all for the excellent advice, passion for the music, and desire to help other people to grow in the right ways.
When I started this post, I was hoping to learn more about the ways that people learn tunes, rather than address the scope of a jazz education but since the thread has taken this turn, here are my goals.
I am hoping to learn jazz in a natural way, much like a person learns any other language. I have attempted to read jazz theory books before, but find theory books much like lecturing a toddler on the subjunctive tense before the toddler has learned how to say "hello". In my classical training, I have found that music theory helped me quite a bit, once I was ready for it in college. I have also memorized phrases at the suggestion of others, but am disgusted with myself when a person turns to me and says "hello" only to respond "To be or not to be." In classical music, I can express myself when playing Enesco's Legende, the Tomasi Concerto for trumpet, the Hindemith Sonata, or whatever other sheet music you put in front of me, BUT if someone sings a simple tune like Hey Diddle Diddle, I can hear it in my head, I can sing it, but I won't be able to get through the first couple of notes on the trumpet. This is my problem, and I imagine it is a problem that is experienced by many students who go through their school music programs without a jazz program.
My personal opinion is that I would be better served learning how to speak before I devoted a great deal of time to the nuances of jazz theory. First, I think an English student or student of any language is better served by learning to speak before focusing on grammar. I could be wrong, but this is just my intuition.
Second, I understand that theory is essential but I also believe that theory is not everything. Much like an English professor who writes mediocre novels, an understanding of theory will only get you so far.
To truly understand what the person next to me has just played, doesn't a balanced approach make the most sense? To use BOTH the theory AND the ears to understand the dialog of the music as it is developed on the bandstand? It is clear from everyone's responses that there are plenty of times when a competent musician will rely on the most appropriate tool for the moment (outliers excepted).
If a balanced approach is the most logical way, then the question really boils down to the individual and what will help the individual grow to his or her fullest potential. For some, I imagine that a theory book accompanied by some transcription would be the best approach. For others, I imagine that learning through imitation with a bit of theory at first would be best. At some point though, everyone who is starting out should aspire to be competent in all aspects of the artform and should adapt their practices to what they need to achieve their goals as they grow.
For me, I believe that the best approach is to learn tunes by ear and find my compass within the language before devoting a great deal of time to the theory. I don't expect to get any jazz gigs soon, nor would I take one, until I believe that I am a competent player.
Right now, I find tremendous pride in learning to play things like Yankee Doodle or Happy Birthday and then playing them in different keys. I never felt that sense of pride when reading Levine or playing along with Aebersold. It was always overwhelming and it denied the music of its vibrancy. But when I was reading Paul Berliner's excellent book, I was inspired by the stories he told of musicians who grew up learning from records and how Lee Konitz' method is similar to this. It is this growth, that can be seen in musician after musician, going from listening, to imitating, to expressing, that I hope to follow.
Is ear training the only thing I plan on doing to learn? Of course not, but it is a small piece of the longer walk toward truly expressing myself through music.


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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's nice when the OP responds like he has here. I think the approach he has suggested for himself has validity. Keeping an open mind and doing the things that work for you is a good approach.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post, Nate. And as we have seen, approaches work best when it works best for you - not the next guy. With that in mind, here is how I personally learned and my relation of ear to theory, which you may find useful.

I first would play tunes by ear. Sometimes making it a game, or social thing, by playing with a friend...or group.

Then I learned how to use common melodic techniques in jazz context, like chromatic passing tones or grupettos.

I played along live or recorded backgrounds and here's an important thing for me: I played by ear until I got to a place in the music where I just couldn't work it out, and then I went to theoretical means to find the solution.

Of course I'm light years away from that process now, but that was my first learning process; to learn by ear and then, and only then, to find a theoretical clarity to a problem that I couldn't otherwise find.

One activity that accompanied my learning, regardless what proportion of ear/theory you use, though, is to listen to jazz voraciously.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Good post, Nate. And as we have seen, approaches work best when it works best for you - not the next guy. With that in mind, here is how I personally learned and my relation of ear to theory, which you may find useful.

I first would play tunes by ear. Sometimes making it a game, or social thing, by playing with a friend...or group.

Then I learned how to use common melodic techniques in jazz context, like chromatic passing tones or grupettos.

I played along live or recorded backgrounds and here's an important thing for me: I played by ear until I got to a place in the music where I just couldn't work it out, and then I went to theoretical means to find the solution.

Of course I'm light years away from that process now, but that was my first learning process; to learn by ear and then, and only then, to find a theoretical clarity to a problem that I couldn't otherwise find.

One activity that accompanied my learning, regardless what proportion of ear/theory you use, though, is to listen voraciously.


Yes! This!
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess many of you don't or can't play piano. Found piano was a huge asset for visualizing, hearing, thinking about changes and how things fit and why.

I always see a virtual keyboard in my head when I play trumpet, trombone, piano or guitar.

I'm no burning bebop player, but I can comp chords, play the head or improvise a solo even block chord solos. I can also comp w my right hand and walk a bass line with my left and I'm experimenting with stride and more complex Latin rhythms and tumbao bass rhythms in my left hand.

And what's cool is I never forget what I've learned on piano even with months or longer with out playing.

It also taught me to think in numbers instead of note names. They don't matter, just the key, and everything else has a relative number. This way if I switch keys, nothing really changes as it's just degrees of the home key of the tune.

Makes memorization wayyyyy easier to think in numbers. Makes applying it to piano much easier.

And with trumpet...we can only play one note at a time, whereas with piano obviously we can play a chord of whatever we choose and see how and hear how our note selections fit and WHY they fit.

This makes understanding why substitutions work and why certain modes are more conducive to certain chords and progressions , or how to not play the same boring thing over turn arounds....being able to visualize it. Not just hear a feeling, but really understand why a sound works.

Anyway...in four pages of thread I'm surprised nobody brought up playing piano.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
I guess many of you don't or can't play piano.

I don't know what you have to go on to say that. Be that as it may -
Quote:
...in four pages of thread I'm surprised nobody brought up playing piano.

Right. Good (implied) point. Piano is definitely an important tool, at least for me.
Dizzy, by the way, is quoted as telling Miles, when he asked, "How do you play that chord?", he said "Mutha______ , learn to play the piano", LOL.
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Hugh Anderson
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nate, play along with the radio or tv, too. You only get one shot at it, so it really focuses you. Really exasperating sometimes, too.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
I guess many of you don't or can't play piano. Found piano was a huge asset for visualizing, hearing, thinking about changes and how things fit and why.

I always see a virtual keyboard in my head when I play trumpet, trombone, piano or guitar.

I'm no burning bebop player, but I can comp chords, play the head or improvise a solo even block chord solos. I can also comp w my right hand and walk a bass line with my left and I'm experimenting with stride and more complex Latin rhythms and tumbao bass rhythms in my left hand.

And what's cool is I never forget what I've learned on piano even with months or longer with out playing.

It also taught me to think in numbers instead of note names. They don't matter, just the key, and everything else has a relative number. This way if I switch keys, nothing really changes as it's just degrees of the home key of the tune.

Makes memorization wayyyyy easier to think in numbers. Makes applying it to piano much easier.

And with trumpet...we can only play one note at a time, whereas with piano obviously we can play a chord of whatever we choose and see how and hear how our note selections fit and WHY they fit.

This makes understanding why substitutions work and why certain modes are more conducive to certain chords and progressions , or how to not play the same boring thing over turn arounds....being able to visualize it. Not just hear a feeling, but really understand why a sound works.

Anyway...in four pages of thread I'm surprised nobody brought up playing piano.


Learning piano (or guitar) and thinking in numbers (I-III-V) etc are very useful.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
I guess many of you don't or can't play piano. Found piano was a huge asset for visualizing, hearing, thinking about changes and how things fit and why.

[...]

Anyway...in four pages of thread I'm surprised nobody brought up playing piano.


I got tired of bringing it up...

Yes, making friends with the piano is a great thing to do. It's also a good way to warm up to transposing C lead sheets.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jazz_trpt wrote:
Benge.nut wrote:
I guess many of you don't or can't play piano. Found piano was a huge asset for visualizing, hearing, thinking about changes and how things fit and why.

[...]

Anyway...in four pages of thread I'm surprised nobody brought up playing piano.


I got tired of bringing it up...

Yes, making friends with the piano is a great thing to do. It's also a good way to warm up to transposing C lead sheets.


Love your transcriptions by the way. Cleaned up some of my own work by cheating and looking at yours!!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
Love your transcriptions by the way. Cleaned up some of my own work by cheating and looking at yours!!


Lol, glad you found a use for some of them
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