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My progress after two weeks TCE / Questions


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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
In the lower register that much compression is just not needed. So nope, I don't play that way in the lower....

Don't forget about a wide tongue, try and cover your entire top row of teeth with the tongue, so air only escapes through the small channel in front near your aperture


Yeah the last paragraph everyone can think about and will be effective throughout almost every technique I have seen. It will make your tone fuller no matter the level, it will give you more compression at higher levels and you will not waste your power by puffing the cheeks , so no down sides. No one taught me this and it is actually the first time I have heard it said in such a. Effective manner. You are just making a more effective seal to vary compression. I got lucky when just trying to see what flattening the tongue sounded like. 1st time I went for hi c and got hi g a light bulb went off. I'm sure there's more but this is a keeper even for someone who thinks TCE is a trick only to be used when nothing else will work.
Rod
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:


NOBODY has ever described a proper definition on how to double tongue with such a forward compressed tongue and "wedge"

The "cough" direction makes no sense to me. There is no evidence it's even a possibility. Again, no recording, no video, no pro player saying he plays this way, or multiple tongues while using any kind of MSC/TCE

Like I said earlier, having so much compression inside your mouth while playing in the lower register, seems like such overkill. My tongue gets wider and more forward around high C and above....where the compression makes sense. But in low and mid register, it's unnecessary to me and my articulation are too hard and "poppy" when I don't need or want that sound.

And multiple articulations I do not believe are possible with that tongue shape. The "cough articulation" is a mystery and I think as probable as the sightings of Bigfoot or space aliens.

I've asked Jerry to demonstrate it..never happened. I've asked other self appointed MSC specialists to make a tape or a vid showing how it works, and never got a response.


I can tell you how to double tongue with TCE. I do it every day.
When you learn TCE from Bahb Civiletti a large part of his teaching is playing exercises using "The five articulations", one of which is a 'gu' attack. Alternating between this and spit attack is how you do the double tongue.

I am more than happy to make a video on this topic so that you can see and hear what I do, but it's not going to be for a few days as I'm quite busy.

As for your opinion about compression being overkill in the low register - I just think this is a misunderstanding. It's perfectly possible to play with less compression in the middle and low registers without allowing the tongue to recede. The point of keeping the tongue forward is to maintain pitch centre.
I've made a video in which I demonstrate softer playing with TCE. You can find on youtube; I think it's titled "Playing easy with TCE"

Most people's problem with playing in this way is that they want everything to be perfect from the beginning. It's my opinion that with most techniques a player starts out weak and then hopes to be strong. When switching to TCE it's the other way around. It just takes a bit of commitment, as evidenced by people like myself, Bahb and others.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Benge.nut wrote:
In the lower register that much compression is just not needed. So nope, I don't play that way in the lower....

Don't forget about a wide tongue, try and cover your entire top row of teeth with the tongue, so air only escapes through the small channel in front near your aperture


Yeah the last paragraph everyone can think about and will be effective throughout almost every technique I have seen. It will make your tone fuller no matter the level, it will give you more compression at higher levels and you will not waste your power by puffing the cheeks , so no down sides. No one taught me this and it is actually the first time I have heard it said in such a. Effective manner. You are just making a more effective seal to vary compression. I got lucky when just trying to see what flattening the tongue sounded like. 1st time I went for hi c and got hi g a light bulb went off. I'm sure there's more but this is a keeper even for someone who thinks TCE is a trick only to be used when nothing else will work.
Rod


Bits and pieces of stuff I've heard over the years so,times doesn't resonate in my head until years later.

When I do this with my tongue I hardly need any wind power to get a huge, full, focused sound. And in the lower register my tongue is wide but not as forward, although I do articulate through my teeth. And I find that only minimal tongue movement is needed to articulate.

I do use syllables of sorts. Multiple tongue stuff is more of a "thuck-ka-thuck-ka" or "thick-ka-thick-ka-thick-ka" instead of "tu-ku-tu-ku" and the "th" is because I articulate through my teeth.

But back to wide tongue and channeling air. I think of my tongue as if it were like putting my thumb in front of the stream of water coming out of a garden hose. The water sprays faster, further and more powerful the more your thumb covers the opening right??

Want a little more compression? Raise your bottom lip up and over your top row of teeth by bunching or pushing up with your chin, getting more lip to lip compression. It's really a minimal movement to get your bottom lip up and over your top row of teeth, but the results are major. The higher I play, the more my bottom lip pushes up against my top lip and raises higher over my top row of teeth.

Now the air is channeled with your wide tongue covering your whole top row of teeth, and further the air has the obstacle of your bottom lip in order to escape. More air compression. Faster more powerful air stream like the water leaving the garden hose. These two things are what got me passed my wall of high F-G to learning how to play and controlling my playable range up to double Cs and Ds. I don't use that range often, but know what to do to play those notes now.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
Benge.nut wrote:


NOBODY has ever described a proper definition on how to double tongue with such a forward compressed tongue and "wedge"

The "cough" direction makes no sense to me. There is no evidence it's even a possibility. Again, no recording, no video, no pro player saying he plays this way, or multiple tongues while using any kind of MSC/TCE

Like I said earlier, having so much compression inside your mouth while playing in the lower register, seems like such overkill. My tongue gets wider and more forward around high C and above....where the compression makes sense. But in low and mid register, it's unnecessary to me and my articulation are too hard and "poppy" when I don't need or want that sound.

And multiple articulations I do not believe are possible with that tongue shape. The "cough articulation" is a mystery and I think as probable as the sightings of Bigfoot or space aliens.

I've asked Jerry to demonstrate it..never happened. I've asked other self appointed MSC specialists to make a tape or a vid showing how it works, and never got a response.


I can tell you how to double tongue with TCE. I do it every day.
When you learn TCE from Bahb Civiletti a large part of his teaching is playing exercises using "The five articulations", one of which is a 'gu' attack. Alternating between this and spit attack is how you do the double tongue.

I am more than happy to make a video on this topic so that you can see and hear what I do, but it's not going to be for a few days as I'm quite busy.

As for your opinion about compression being overkill in the low register - I just think this is a misunderstanding. It's perfectly possible to play with less compression in the middle and low registers without allowing the tongue to recede. The point of keeping the tongue forward is to maintain pitch centre.
I've made a video in which I demonstrate softer playing with TCE. You can find on youtube; I think it's titled "Playing easy with TCE"

Most people's problem with playing in this way is that they want everything to be perfect from the beginning. It's my opinion that with most techniques a player starts out weak and then hopes to be strong. When switching to TCE it's the other way around. It just takes a bit of commitment, as evidenced by people like myself, Bahb and others.


Just checked out your vids. Great sound and playing man! Excellent explanations of WHAT you are doing as well.

I really enjoyed hearing you play the Telemann. What horn is that with the key change valve? Sounds great. Nice triple F you snuck in at the end btw.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more thing:

In trumpetplanet's Teleman vid. Check out his seating position and posture. Look how relaxed he is, legs crossed totally relaxed. His breathing is no more exaggerated than when one is having a conversation.

This bolsters my thinking that all that talk of huge gulps of air, wedge breathing, tanking up, raised chest, breathing from diaphragm, etc....wasted energy. If what's going on INSIDE your mouth is controlling the air, then less air is needed to get great results.

It's totally opposite from what we are taught and what our body is telling us to do. Less is more, and the battle is an internal fight of our own minds to think we need huge gulps of air, more pressure and more energy to get a big beautiful sound.

Well done buddy!!
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Benge.nut"]
Rod Haney wrote:
Benge.nut wrote:
In the lower register that much compression is just not needed. So nope, I don't play that way in the lower....

Don't forget about a wide tongue, try and cover your entire top row of teeth with the tongue, so air only escapes through the small channel in front near your aperture


Yeah the last paragraph everyone can think about and will be effective throughout almost every technique I have seen. It will make your tone fuller no matter the level, it will give you more compression at higher levels and you will not waste your power by puffing the cheeks , so no down sides. No one taught me this and it is actually the first time I have heard it said in such a. Effective manner. You are just making a more effective seal to vary compression. I got lucky when just trying to see what flattening the tongue sounded like. 1st time I went for hi c and got hi g a light bulb went off. I'm sure there's more but this is a keeper even for someone who thinks TCE is a trick only to be used when nothing else will work.
Rod[/quote

But back to wide tongue and channeling air. I think of my tongue as if it were like putting my thumb in front of the stream of water coming out of a garden hose. The water sprays faster, further and more powerful the more your thumb covers the opening right??

Want a little more compression? Raise your bottom lip up and over your top row of teeth by bunching or pushing up with your chin, getting more lip to lip compression. It's really a minimal movement to get your bottom lip up and over your top row of teeth, but the results are major. The higher I play, the more my bottom lip pushes up against my top lip and raises higher over my top row of .....


Not going along with any of that. I heard Jerry say it was a technique he developed because he could not do higher notes in the "prescribed manner". I can (within normal range) so I'm not going there and i said I thought it was a trick. I listen to everything and take whatever works, and tongue/teeth works no matter what you do in front with teeth in front, over or between the lips. I was just saying whether you think TCE is a cult or the best thing since sliced bread, that the wide tongue/seal is a good takeaway and worth trying.
Rod
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, do what you like and try what you like. I was just sharing what worked for me. And Jerry Callet hardly "invented" any of this. That's like saying Columbus "discovered" the New World.

Both have always been there. But Jerry just was able to put into words what a lot of people do naturally and have done well before Jerrys "method" was being taught.

Hardly a trick, more just a different way of playing. When I hear a player that sounds great to my ears, I always pick his brain on what he's doing, how he tongues, where his tongue strikes and what how his chops work. Some guys I've learned from, some not.

Same with teachers. I've studied with lots of known cats and lots of unknown. Taken countless one-off lessons with guys I was exceptionally impressed with just to pick their brains.

Take the good, leave the rest. But there is no trick chop setting, just like their is no trick or cheat mouthpiece. Either you can make it work, or you can't, and their are countless paths to get to the same end result of great trumpeting.
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Justus
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice to see some more discussion in this thread!

@trumpetplanet: An explanatory video about double tonguing would be awesome!
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
Well, do what you like and try what you like. I was just sharing what worked for me. ...
Take the good, leave the rest. But there is no trick chop setting, just like their is no trick or cheat mouthpiece. Either you can make it work, or you can't, and their are countless paths to get to the same end result of great trumpeting.


Well stated again. Just because I don't see an advantage doesn't mean others can't benefit. I haven't read of anyone's teachings that I buy 100% or anywhere close (but that may be why no one takes lessons from me among myriad reasons). I spend a lot of time thinking about what is going on when things go right or wrong as I play (Adams followers cringe) and try lots of things. Many things that others do I simply can't do yet, sometimes we have same results with 2 different methods, etc. ad infinitim. Point is there are good methods everywhere but an experimental nature and open mind are required to find what works. I encourage the young man to try it all but use your developing judgement to decide what you want to sound like. I like Benge dude tend to gravitate to people who match the sound picture I want. Make sure the techniques you study bring the sound you want to play.
I like Hakan Hardenberger's method of play and try to be totally without movement but I don't like his choice of music. This is my choice and is why the TCE is so strange to me, but the original comment I made regarded the tongue/upper teeth seal is applicable to any technique I have been exposed to and that's all I was trying to say.
Peace
Rod
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
Just checked out your vids. Great sound and playing man! Excellent explanations of WHAT you are doing as well.

I really enjoyed hearing you play the Telemann. What horn is that with the key change valve? Sounds great. Nice triple F you snuck in at the end btw.


The trumpet is an old Boosey & Co Class A 'prototype'

Benge.nut wrote:
One more thing:

In trumpetplanet's Teleman vid. Check out his seating position and posture. Look how relaxed he is, legs crossed totally relaxed. His breathing is no more exaggerated than when one is having a conversation.

This bolsters my thinking that all that talk of huge gulps of air, wedge breathing, tanking up, raised chest, breathing from diaphragm, etc....wasted energy. If what's going on INSIDE your mouth is controlling the air, then less air is needed to get great results.

It's totally opposite from what we are taught and what our body is telling us to do. Less is more, and the battle is an internal fight of our own minds to think we need huge gulps of air, more pressure and more energy to get a big beautiful sound.

Well done buddy!!


Thank you very much for your observations and compliments!
_________________
Twitter: @trumpetplanet
Websites: trumpetpla.net + tonguecontrolled.info
Facebook: .com/colquhountrumpet
Trumpet: Stomvi Master
Pedagogical preference: TCE


Last edited by trumpetplanet on Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Justus,

I think it's great that you're experimenting intelligently and working to improve your playing (Not that my opinion means much). And I think many people are excited to see someone who has implemented TCE very quickly and who is playing touching double Es now.

I do want to give some context to this conversation though, as I did have a look through your youtube channel and note there is a video of you playing a respectable Double C from 2 years ago. I can also see that you're reasonably young (?) and you have musical abilities beyond high note playing and can play Piano (and drums?).

You're a talented young musician and your ordinary playing appears to be working well. My guess is that you're experimenting with TCE to gain... More range, more power or more endurance?

So just to give some more context, I'd be interested to know how you've previously worked on to improving these areas?
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it not motivation enough to simply be a better player, or for playing to be easier? Getting to a level that impresses people is easy. Getting to a level that people will pay you to play is also relatively easy. But to be outstanding takes something else... I was already a respected professional when I switched to TCE. Looking back to four years ago I would never chose to lose the awareness I have gained through its practice.

I think that it is the reading of statements like that which causes people to persue TCE.
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Trumpet: Stomvi Master
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