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brass band cornet mouthpiece with 16C4-style rim?


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davidm
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:17 am    Post subject: brass band cornet mouthpiece with 16C4-style rim? Reply with quote

Does anyone make a short-shank cornet mouthpiece suitable for brass band front row work with the same rim configuration as a Yamaha 16C4 trumpet mouthpiece?

I'm having trouble finding a mouthpiece I'm happy with for playing cornet in a brass band.

I play Bb and C trumpet with a Yamaha 16C4 mp. For the last few months I've been playing flugelhorn in the band, and after struggling with the (random and ancient) mouthpieces supplied with it bought a Yamaha 16F4 flugel mp, which Yamaha claim has the same rim as the 16C4 trumpet mp, and it works very nicely for me. I can switch between trumpet and flugel without too much trouble.

Now I need to play front-row cornet as well, and I've tried the following mps:

* Wick 4B - too small, like trying to go back to an 11B4 on trumpet.
* Yamaha 'David King' - lovely tone, but too big; lost all my top notes. Would be great for back row work though.
* Wick 2B - better than either of the above but still not great. I got back some of the notes missing with the David King one, but they aren't very reliable and the intonation is a bit sketchy.

I tried the above mps for a couple of months each so I don't think its just a matter of getting used to them, especially as I need to keep playing trumpet and flugel as well.

Unfortunately Yamaha don't seem to do a rim-equivalent short shank cornet mp; the nearest would presumably be the 16E, but that has a 'standard' rim contour instead of the 'semi-flat' contour of the 16C4, and a slightly larger rim diameter. I'm also not convinced with Yamaha describing it as "Slightly thin rim with a unique form".

Cornet is a Yamaha 8-series Xeno. I'm in Australia, which means everything costs twice as much as in the US and takes ages if its special order.

Any ideas?
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a Curry 3BBC or 1-1/2BBC would work.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Wick 2B - better than either of the above but still not great. I got back some of the notes missing with the David King one, but they aren't very reliable and the intonation is a bit sketchy.


Interesting result. My Wick 2B makes my York sound wonderful with the best tone and response of all of the Wicks. You might try the Wick 3B. I found the response of the 2B and 3B totally different. The 3 series is extremely responsive and maybe a skosh brighter than the 2.

Best wishes.
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davidm
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
Maybe a Curry 3BBC or 1-1/2BBC would work.

Are the Curry sizes intended to match Bach trumpet sizes? I think the 1-1/2C roughly matched the 16C4 in trumpet land, so maybe that would be worth a look.
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davidm
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Quote:
Wick 2B - better than either of the above but still not great. I got back some of the notes missing with the David King one, but they aren't very reliable and the intonation is a bit sketchy.


Interesting result. My Wick 2B makes my York sound wonderful with the best tone and response of all of the Wicks. You might try the Wick 3B. I found the response of the 2B and 3B totally different. The 3 series is extremely responsive and maybe a skosh brighter than the 2.

Best wishes.


Thanks for that; I was considering a 3B but they are quite expensive here, might have to see if I can borrow one to try.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

davidm wrote:
Dale Proctor wrote:
Maybe a Curry 3BBC or 1-1/2BBC would work.

Are the Curry sizes intended to match Bach trumpet sizes? I think the 1-1/2C roughly matched the 16C4 in trumpet land, so maybe that would be worth a look.


Yes, the rims are copies of popular Bach Mt. Vernon era mouthpieces. Here is the link:

http://www.currympc.com/index.php?id=49
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends on the sound profile of the band, how picky are they about playing with a darker, more mellow sound, how difficult is their repertoire, and how much time you have available to devote to developing your embouchure strength and skills on the cornet.

I would echo suggestions to try a Curry cornet mouthpiece. Their 1.5 rim has a similar diameter to the Yamaha 16 rim. (Their 1.25 is slightly larger, but it's close.)

If the band book is difficult and strenuous and if they aren't too picky about playing with a really dark, mellow sound, then you might like either the TC or DC cup. They're very similar; the TC cup is very slightly more V-shaped, while the DC-cup is very slightly more C-shaped. (I have played the TC cup and like it.) These cups would be easier to transition back and forth with trumpet and are easier to play.

If the band wants a darker, more mellow sound, then you'd want to try the Curry BBC cup. It's more strenuous to play than the TC (or DC, I suppose), but it would bring you closer to that kind of sound.

Another option that I don't think many people know about is the Stork Traditional Cup cornet mouthpiece. Their 2 rim would be the closest match. As with Curry, you'd have a choice of either their A+ cup, which is intended for BBB work, or their A cup, which is similar in terms of ease of play to the Curry TC cup, maybe even a bit easier. I play a Stork Traditional cornet mouthpiece with the A cup (of course!) and like it a lot.

If you can't find a retailer in Australia, another option for retailer would be Mouthpiece Express. They ship internationally, and they accept returns under certain circumstances. They carry both Curry and Stork cornet mouthpieces, along with many other brands.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would urge a little caution about trying to rim-match exactly...

I spent a good deal of time playing sop on 1.5C variants - including a Curry 1.5C top with a cornet backbore attached.
So I decided to buy a 1.5BBC thinking it would be nice to use the same rim on both sop (my main instrument) and Bb cornet and I already knew I liked the 3BBC I'd had previously... long story short, although I loved that 1.5 rim profile on the C cup, I couldn't get it to work for me at all on the BBC cup.

I would also say that I didn't at all like the Yamaha 16C4 rim, I found it very different to the Curry 1.5C rim.


For me, if you're going to go down the Curry BBC route, I'd suggest that (atleast for me) the 3 rim is a far better match for that kind of cup than the 1.5 rim was.




Your assumption is correct that the 16E rim profile is very different from the 16C4 - I actually find it quite a good mouthpiece, but the rim feel is a little odd and I've never felt entirely at home on it (though results are generally good).
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi davidm

I have the same cornet as you, the 8335 Yamaha Xeno. As has already been suggested, I find the Curry mouthpieces to be a good match to this cornet, and as dstdenis suggests, I really like the Curry TC cup, and personally prefer it to the BBC on the Xeno.

I agree with TKSop regarding the Yamaha 16E. I love the sound of this cornet mouthpiece, and I have had good results on it too, but it does have a rather odd feeling rim, fairly narrow with a high point to the outside if I remember correctly (I haven't played it for some time), and very different to the Yamaha 16C4.

Take care

Lou
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I agree with TKSop regarding the Yamaha 16E. I love the sound of this cornet mouthpiece, and I have had good results on it too, but it does have a rather odd feeling rim, fairly narrow with a high point to the outside if I remember correctly (I haven't played it for some time), and very different to the Yamaha 16C4.


I have 9E, 11E, 13E and yes 14E Yamaha cornet mouthpieces. I didn't realize until recently that I had them all. I love the sound and find them quite comfortable, but the alpha angle is higher feeling than I like. It feels higher than my trumpet Yamaha mouthpieces. Those feel just like Bachs.
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Mike Lockman
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denis Wick 4B. Or 3B. And be done. Learn to play it
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comebackcornet
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Lockman wrote:
Denis Wick 4B. Or 3B. And be done. Learn to play it


Easier said than done. I played Wicks (B cup) for years. But at some point they just stopped working for me. I have tried going back many times, but if a mouthpiece is not right for you, it's just not right and you will always be limited. I second the recommendation for Stork Vachianno A cup mp. I find it a good alternative to the Wick - still very deep but not quite as fluffy and still capable of an excellent sound if you have the right concept. It has a 20 throat in comparison to 18 for the Wick.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Lockman wrote:
Denis Wick 4B. Or 3B. And be done. Learn to play it


Lotta truth here.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamaha has two models of 16E - standard in silver and Custom 16E-GP (gold plated). Rims for these are not identical. In my experience, standard 16E had an uncomfortably sharp inner angle. The rim and inner angle on 16E-GP were fine.
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They did make a 16E4 at one time which had the 16C4 rim. Very rare though. I have only ever seen one.

One option is to get another 16C4 and have the rim threaded to fit your choice of mouthpiece.

One reason why this rim matching might not work is alpha angle. The 16C4 rim on a cornet mouthpiece might actually feel bigger. You might need to go smaller on cornet to get the same feel.

I have been using an Alliance RM3 recently which has a rim not unlike a 3C. I am considering having it threaded and changing the rim, but waiting to see how I get on longer term.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I've just been thinking. I own a Yamaha 16C4 trumpet mouthpiece, which was supplied with my Xeno II. I've tried it only once for curiosities sake. I'm not sure how the rim compares to a Bach 1 1/2C, having played a Bach 1 1/2C only a few times also. I've also played the Yamaha 16F4 flugel mouthpiece once, when I didn't have my flugel with me, and played a colleague's Yamaha 631 flugel.

I also own a Yamaha 14B4 cornet mouthpiece, and have previously used the Yamaha 14B4 cornet mouthpiece to demonstrate Yamaha trumpets in the music store in which I used to work before I move away.

Although my particular Bach 3C is according to a UK mouthpiece tech who measured it, as large as a typical Bach 1 1/2C, and has a cup diameter more like the Yamaha 16C4 than the 14B4, the rim contour feels more like the 14B4, which to me feels like a smaller variant 3C.

Since the Curry 3C rim feels along the lines of a Bach 3C, I therefore feel that the Curry 3 rim may not feel particularly like the Yamaha 16C4. However, TKSop, who is pretty knowledgeable with mouthpieces, has found that the Curry BBC cup does not work well with the Curry 1.5 rim, at least for him on his cornet.

My band colleague who owns the Yamaha 631 flugel seems to have no difficulty switching between his Bach 1 1/2C on trumpet and Yamaha 16F4, but I'm not sure how similar they are.

I'm wondering whether it may be worth considering a switch to Curry mouthpieces on all instruments, or possibly Warburton. The Warburton 3 rim is the most comfortable that I've ever tried, and around the size of a Bach 1 1/2C.

Another mouthpiece I have liked on my Xeno is the Sparx standard line:

http://sparxmusic.com/cnt_products-sparx-mouthpieces.shtml

As I said previously, I really like the Curry TC cup (mine is the 3TC). With hindsight, I can't remember if this was on the Xeno or the Sovereign which I used to own. On whatever cornet I tried them on, I really liked the TC but not the BBC. This is probably relevant, as I found that I liked different mouthpieces on each of these cornets, and that what was great on one didn't really work well for me on the other. I couldn't for example get the Sparx 3 to work well for me on the Sovereign, but I really like it on the Xeno.

In my opinion, which I should have said to begin with, the Xeno likes slightly tighter mouthpieces than the Sovereign, which may explain the issues you had with the Denis Wick 2B.

I really hope that this will help.

Take care

Lou
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Mike Lockman wrote:
Denis Wick 4B. Or 3B. And be done. Learn to play it


Lotta truth here.


Other than Classic, these can be also found in Heritage, Heavyweight and (discontinued; there may be no 'B' version) Roger Webster flavours.

If you want a gentler rim, try to locate the 'W' (wide) rim series of Wick, available in both B and no-letter in even-number sizes (e.g., 2BW, 2W, 4BW, 4W). The rim on these is shockingly soft compared to non-W. For some reason, Wick does not make 3W nor 3BW versions.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

etc-etc wrote:
Yamaha has two models of 16E - standard in silver and Custom 16E-GP (gold plated). Rims for these are not identical. In my experience, standard 16E had an uncomfortably sharp inner angle. The rim and inner angle on 16E-GP were fine.



In my experience this is false.

SO has custom 16E-GP and a couple of standard 16E's, they both play and feel identical to me, and to her.

YMMV..
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:11 am    Post subject: Re: brass band cornet mouthpiece with 16C4-style rim? Reply with quote

davidm wrote:
Does anyone make a short-shank cornet mouthpiece suitable for brass band front row work with the same rim configuration as a Yamaha 16C4 trumpet mouthpiece?

I'm having trouble finding a mouthpiece I'm happy with for playing cornet in a brass band.

I play Bb and C trumpet with a Yamaha 16C4 mp. For the last few months I've been playing flugelhorn in the band, and after struggling with the (random and ancient) mouthpieces supplied with it bought a Yamaha 16F4 flugel mp, which Yamaha claim has the same rim as the 16C4 trumpet mp, and it works very nicely for me. I can switch between trumpet and flugel without too much trouble.

Now I need to play front-row cornet as well, and I've tried the following mps:

* Wick 4B - too small, like trying to go back to an 11B4 on trumpet.
* Yamaha 'David King' - lovely tone, but too big; lost all my top notes. Would be great for back row work though.
* Wick 2B - better than either of the above but still not great. I got back some of the notes missing with the David King one, but they aren't very reliable and the intonation is a bit sketchy.

I tried the above mps for a couple of months each so I don't think its just a matter of getting used to them, especially as I need to keep playing trumpet and flugel as well.

Unfortunately Yamaha don't seem to do a rim-equivalent short shank cornet mp; the nearest would presumably be the 16E, but that has a 'standard' rim contour instead of the 'semi-flat' contour of the 16C4, and a slightly larger rim diameter. I'm also not convinced with Yamaha describing it as "Slightly thin rim with a unique form".

Cornet is a Yamaha 8-series Xeno. I'm in Australia, which means everything costs twice as much as in the US and takes ages if its special order.

Any ideas?



Just a few thoughts! You are about to play in the front row so - solocornet, I presume?! Or? Important to know as endurance is, well, required!!
Your trumpet playing - in what kind of band (big band, symphonic wind band or what), what are the requirements? First chair or not that focus on higher register?
Point being - mouthpiece to be chosen with regards to the demands.
You´ve gotta find what diameter is suitable? Wick 4B 16,5 - too narrow? or was it the rim? ? Your Y C4 rather similiar to the Bach 1 1/2 c - that depth would probably result in a rather bright tonal quality (Once I used it playing the soprano cornet).
People love the sound of Wick 2/3/B - but in the long run up front? Nope - at least not when they come to my amateur lips.
Front row as in "solocornet"? Then I would suggest Wick Heritage (3B) (I have a Wick Ultra 7C but they seem hard to get at these days).
Then a matching trumpet piece - by which I mean same kind of rim; depth in relation to "legit" register´. Maybe a Wick American Classic 5 - 7C if not lead; if lead....well lots of them; Bobby Shew1,5 seems popular. Lately I have had some success with Schilke 11A but also swiss Brand "Lead". Your Y C4 has a trifle less diam. than 16,50 - obviously good for you (?) -///set straight down below/// so diam in that region; I´m a bit amazed you found the W 4B too cramped; could it be the rim/backbore?
Personally I did not find the Curry pieces comfortable - but but.....

Search and thou shalt find ....eventually. Too steep or too big alpha angle crucial as is rim[/b]
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Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: brass band cornet mouthpiece with 16C4-style rim? Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Your Y C4 has a trifle less diam. than 16,50 - obviously good for you (?) - so diam in that region; I´m a bit amazed you found the W 4B too cramped; could it be the rim/backbore?


Hi Seymor

The Yamaha 16C4 has a cup diameter of 17mm.

All the best

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
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Cornets:
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Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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