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jaw position



 
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:05 pm    Post subject: jaw position Reply with quote

i have an overbite and moved my jaw position forward a few years ago to where the upper and lower teeth align. it took a half year to get used to the new lip set and was worth the bother having better and more even mouthpiece support, upper and lower.
i had the feeling at the time that this was not an isolated case, that there was some fundamental principle involved, and that many or most of people could benefit. not being a pedagogue i couldn't articulate things beyond i had an overbite and moved the jaw to where the teeth align, which is a story you hear repeated here.
well. i just saw a charlie porter video on blowing and horn angle. charlie says to start by blowing air out the lips as you would to cool off soup. doing this i discovered that the jaw automatically and naturally came forward in the act. i had originally played with the jaw in its relaxed back position figuring it was best to completely relax before playing. i can now see it's all about the natural blowing position, not the natural relaxed body position, and yes, i feel stupid and not for the first time.
what with individual physiology and the many possibilities of lip and mouthpiece positions there are more ways to get things bollixed up than to get them correctly lined up. the odds of multiplicity are decidedly against us necessitating either strong innate sense or some outside help.
your thoughts please on natural blowing position and jaw and teeth alignment.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an overbite as well, and I kick out my bottom jaw as well to keep my top and bottom rows of teeth more aligned. I've done this naturally since I was very young and never thought about it until somebody told me.

I've never experienced TMJ or any other adverse side effects. Keep in mind to push out the lower jaw to align teeth, we are talking about millimeters in movement. No more than is done when talking or eating etc. It's not "unnatural" or any kind of hyper extension. Our jaw float freely (within reason obviously) on purpose and by design.

And if it helps some trumpet playing...that's ok too!!

The only thing I wish I could avoid more of is in the very low register, my head ends up pointing down and my horn angle pops up even more. But if that's the worst of the effects from playing w a forward jaw...no biggie.
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scott@95603
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do have an opinion on this subject, having had to deal with a significant overbite my entire trumpet life. If a player moves his jaw out so the horn is in a natural position (Charlie Porter), which is the way I learned to play, the top and bottom teeth don't necessarily line up evenly. Sometimes there is still quite a difference between the two, and if that's the case, the player probably won't drop his jaw as much as a player who has a more even bite. If there is a quarter inch difference between the top and bottom teeth alignment, dropping the jaw a quarter inch, as might normally be the case, the player ends up with about a half inch gap between the top and bottom teeth. It is my experience that if you play with an excessive overbite without fully compensating by moving your jaw all the way out to even up the front teeth, you end up playing with your jaw in a fairly closed position, which for me caused a couple problems. 1) I played with a very open aperture, requiring me to pull my lips back in order to give my embouchure support. 2) My tonguing was very bad, especially multiple tonguing because, I believe, the tongue was not able to move into the correct position...there just wasn't enough room when my jaw was so closed. I have taken drastic measures to play with an even bite, but it is not easy to do, at least it wasn't for me. (I am not a professional trumpet player and I do wish I could play like Charlie Porter.) scott
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Last edited by scott@95603 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scott

i wound up moving my jaw forward sort of coming in through the back door. i had started the cat anderson routine where you line up the upper and lower teeth and then do long blowing, and on giving up the routine, i kept the more forward jaw alignment where the teeth align.
the proper point for the jaw IMO is where the teeth line up to help with all the stuff you dealt with and for the common and obvious structure needed to support a mouthpiece, with lips and teeth lined up as best possible.
amazing it took the better part of a decade for that to sink in.
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scott@95603
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck, I agree completely. I know it is possible to play with front teeth that are not even; I made it through college doing so, but the limitations it brings are very frustrating...if you are trying to "get good." After my 20's I quit playing for a few years, and when I picked the horn back up, I did so in an effort to solve the problem. The ten years you mention is similar to my story.
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1jazzyalex
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank goodness my overbite is only about 1/8 inch, and I also move my jaw forward to make my teeth even. Fortunately my front teeth are straight otherwise - not like the snaggle teeth especially lower ones some people have. (What is it about being on TV that makes every politician show the world their lower front teeth right down to the gumline?)
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's an old saying, you have to hold your jaw just right. How I wish I had been told that the first time I ever picked up a horn! I never did figure it out, and had to be taught. Doc Reinhardt had it all figured out! Dave Sheets told me about his ordeal with this, suggesting I pursue it at all costs, including extended agony. Dialing this in, with some instruction, helped me SO much!

I never considered the articulation aspect - good point!
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a decent sized overbite and a tendency towards TMJ problems if I'm not careful. My jaw might push out a little when I play (I'm not aware of it doing so, but it might), but certainly nowhere close to lined up. I've made my living as a trumpet player for enough years to know that this setup works fine for me. Range, endurance, sound, and articulation are all fine as long as I practice.

Ray Crisara played with his bell pointing down almost like a clarinet. There were NO problems with his playing.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW- the majority of homo sapiens will have a natural overbite- that's how the mouth comes together to chew, or when the jaw is closed.

I'd suggest a simple check: Where is your jaw (and tongue, etc) when you whistle, if you can whistle? There is probably the ultimate efficient position to move wind from the lungs to the outer area of the lips and beyond to form a sound. If you can figure out how to close up the embouchure from there, you will likely have your best setting to play brass instruments. Good luck.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jose: Nakariakov, too!

Reinhardt's ideas are quite helpful even so. His Encyclopedia is still the best trumpet investment I've ever made. He spells this all out, including why players like this can do so well, despite most saying it's wrong.
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course jaw position is a factor but I found that when I focused more on my jaw/teeth, my tone suffered. It wasn't until I started leadpipe buzzing and "the six notes" that I achieved a more natural tone while increasing efficiency. Granted, my teeth are more aligned and my jaw is more relaxed but there are far too many variables to attempt to control them all.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely, the jaw needs to be fairly close to aligned. For those who move it forward to play though, it moves throughout the register. As the embouchure adjusts, and the muscular contracts and relax, the jaw moves a little to keep everything lined up.

David Hickman has a good section in his Trumpet Pedagogy book on Fixed vs Floating Jaw players.

If the overbite is close enough that it doesn't cause lip-alignment issues (One lips slides over the other) then you don't need to move it forward. For a lot of people though as the lower lip curls in some, the lower jaw has to come forward some to keep it from sliding up behind the top lip and getting too close to the top teeth edges as the lips contract.

Pedal tones and lip bends are helpful in fixing jaw alignment issues
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
Jose: Nakariakov, too!

Reinhardt's ideas are quite helpful even so. His Encyclopedia is still the best trumpet investment I've ever made. He spells this all out, including why players like this can do so well, despite most saying it's wrong.



right, nakariakov. it goes to show that there are different ways to skin a cat. where it is with me is that i look for,,,, fundamental soundness, which i figure the teeth alignment is, and there is mechanical virtue to the setup, and then i am happy. i could do otherwise and progress.
i took a lesson decades ago from a reinhardt student who broke me from leaning back to blow, iirc he said 'chase the horn', don't let the horn push your head back and cause the leaning back. it made sense, i figured it was fundamental soundness, it makes me happy to follow this. all this regardless arturo and botti lean back. i personally am not going to do it.
past being unqualified to play with arturo my playing is not advanced enough to rate a lesson with him which should be reserved for working professionals. it doesn't matter. i am the customer here and i have to be happy. the trumpet is always going to be difficult and the way forward is to find a fundamentally sound manner to blow.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
Jose: Nakariakov, too!

Reinhardt's ideas are quite helpful even so. His Encyclopedia is still the best trumpet investment I've ever made. He spells this all out, including why players like this can do so well, despite most saying it's wrong.


Nakariakov's horn angle is not at all what you seem to think. He plays with his whole head titled towards the floor, but if you compare the angle of the horn to the face, it's not all that low. You can see that the bottom jaw is forward (either naturally or by pushing it forward) and creating a fairly even surface for the mouthpiece.

A lot of players with fairly aligned teeth have a lower-than-straight out angle because the contour/slope of their teeth.

Straight Type IIIs will have the 'clarinet angle' I assume, but they're very uncommon on trumpet.
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Dave CCM/SSO
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Trumpet World!

Most people have to adjust their lower jaw when playing trumpet. It "floats" to the correct position to allow for the proper support on both top and bottom. I think the key is to let it happen as naturally as possible. Everyone is different.

A tool that has helped me to find the right position is the mouthpiece visualizer. I like to use one that actually fits into the lead pipe and allows me to buzz in the same way that I play the horn. It's even better if you can find one that has a similar rim diameter to the mouthpiece that you play. There is a product available at Pickett brass called the "Asper Trumpet Mouthpiece Visualizer" that is great!

I use this for about a minute every morning, listening for a focused, clear buzz in the center of the chops. It should be quiet and as effortless as possible. I feel as though this sets my jaw in the correct position. It seems impossible to get a clear buzz on the visualizer without the jaw being near where it should be. Then it is very easy to transition to an actual mouthpiece.

Best of luck!!

Dave
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