Aging raw brass

Evinerate · Veteran Member Joined: 15 Nov 2016 Posts: 154

What I like to do (if I ever do get raw brass horns), I age the horn without any protection or polish for 2-3 weeks, once it ages to what I like, I take out some Rennaisance Wax and rub down the horn generiously so the finish is somewhat temporarily "frozen" in place and the horn will also shine a little under light with that aged finish look.

For aging the metal faster, I've heard people shinning some sor t of "light" onto the metal for a few days and it seems to have an effect. Not sure.

rufflicks · Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:49 pm Post subject:

Dennis78 · Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:28 pm Post subject:

I've heard of actually participated in urinating on copper roof material to speed the aging
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a few different ones

Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

Dennis78

Don't give these guys any ideas!! I bet at least a few TH folks read your post and are in their bathrooms right now debating giving it a try on their trumpet!!

LittleRusty · Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:06 pm Post subject:

razeontherock · Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:27 pm Post subject:

Patina is not green on any horn, regardless what any dictionary written by non-brass players claims. Green is indeed oxidation, and not invited on my property.

I would never strip a horn to raw brass, but the only one I ever bought new, I did not pay for a finish. 4 YEARS later there was no appreciable patina, played daily and always left out on a stand. After 7 years it's kinds blotchy, and I'm considering getting it nickel plated.

Trick G? You're arguing with Charlie Melk, not me. Had you read the thread you would know that. Patina is easy to differentiate from oxidation; if it's green, which sometimes develops inside a backbore or downhill from a spit valve, CLEAN IT OFF!

shofarguy · Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:06 am Post subject:

I use the term "corrosion" in place of "oxidation" to indicate the difference between patina and the bad stuff. Yes, patina on brass or copper is a very thin layer of oxidized metal, but the term also includes the tiny hairline scratches that occur as the horn is handled. It's the overall look of something that has aged. Corrosion is another matter. This happens when the substrate is attacked and damaged by a foreign chemical agent other than mere oxygen and moisture.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

You guys ever check pricing and sales of used and vintage instruments? Take a look at what sells fast and what gets a premium.

All original parts and finish are most desirable.

Look at used Bach NY or Mt Vernons, and look at the sale prices for original finish, then raw brass, then a relacquer.

People think (for good reason) altering the instrument's finish alters the playability and changes the instrument from its original state. Thus, the lowered pricing and desirability of horns in raw brass and worse a relacquer.

I understand, when you strip a horns finish you aren't doing it for resale purposes, but inevitably you may want another horn and sell the one you've stripped at some point, and get a different horn. A handful of people might say "oooohhhh that's pretty and different!! And looks like Wynton's trumpets..li have to have it!!" But that's a small minority of people, and usually players would prefer original condition.

Again, it's your horn do what you will. But it's a drag when I see high end horns being purposefully degraded and worse more rare vintage trumpets.

mm55 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412

ALaschiver · Heavyweight Member Joined: 26 Feb 2005 Posts: 639

Benge.nut=+1

The "talking" you do is with what comes out of your head, not with the finish of your horn....don't be a "poser"...The guy with the fancy road bike outfit better be able to ride; the guy that has the body language of Lin Biviano better be able to play. If you horn looks like an old "jazzers" horn, you had
better be able to "say something" with it.....otherwise...you appear "the fool".

If you have a descent instrument or even a poor one, show it and the people who made it some respect...take care of it. That says something about your character and the way you view life.

delano · Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:33 am Post subject:

There is nothing wrong with raw brass horns and most of all it has completely nothing to do with (lack of) repect for anything or anybody nor with the durability of a horn.

mm55 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412

Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

Slight derailment:

New Adams Trumpets/Flugels.

Man these are AWESOME instruments. I love the way they feel, and play. The valves are super awesome as well. Just great built machines.

But....

What I just can't understand is all the goofy finishes that seem to be stocked in the US. They must sell, right?

The ones I've seen players in town are just regular vanilla lacquer or sivler plate. But on websites, they all have aged this, burnished that, matte finish here, satin finish there, half and half bell materials, part yellow brass part nickel etc etc

To me, that stuff is overkill and a turn off. I want my trumpets to look like trumpets. Not an old tea pot from the 1800s? But like I said, people must be buying them, and the must be selling in order to stock them like that.

I'd consider...CONSIDER, a matte or satin finish, with protective lacquer or brushed silver plate. But the horn would have to be a hell of a player as I'd rather my instruments not have so much flash and pizzazz. I don't want glitter exploding out if my bell, or confetti and streamers.

Just a regular trumpet, that I don't have to worry about to much maintenance and that I can just play, and not admire as a faux antique

LittleRusty · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:30 am Post subject: Re: "poser"

shofarguy · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:03 am Post subject:

Dear God! I hope I don't have to become Cindy Bradley just to have permission to play jazz on a "colored" horn. Just imagine my rendition of "Yesterday..." Sing along now!

"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be!"

For the record:
1) My hands are not very corrosive, so the horn isn't corroding. I take good care of it
2) I ordered my flugelhorn raw so I could test a nano-coating I was trying to bring to market
3) When I got the horn it was already turning colors from fingerprints at the factory
4) I like the blue, green, purple, magenta and yellow that have formed on the copper enough to want to explore art finishes for metal even further
5) This is the best playing and sounding flugelhorn I have ever experienced, so I'm not about to take a chance with having it buffed and finished now.
6) I don't ever plan to resell this horn before I'm dead.
7) None of you have to put up with my flugelhorn, so go have a happy day!
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

21trumpet · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:26 pm Post subject:

Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

"Why do people have to get off topic"?? It's an Internet forum full of people with different opinions and differing ways to communicate....not robots, or Siri just answering specific questions.

You guys like raw brass? Fancy colors intrigue you? You don't mind the horns life being shortened due to lack or protection?? Think maybe it plays different or better? Good for you.

Others have differing opinions?? Also good.

It doesn't matter and people shouldn't take differing opinions so personally...because at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter.

The derailment taught me a few things I didn't know about alloys and corrosion and patina etc. I thought it was a useful conversation. Sorry if any of your feeling were hurt

shofarguy · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:53 pm Post subject:

razeontherock · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:44 am Post subject:

My point remains that the green is a different thing than the darker colour of Patna, which is not removal or damage to metal, per one of the most trusted repair techs on the planet. This may factor in to the OP's concern, which is the only reason I posted.

Patina can also be removed, with no damage.

lipshurt · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:36 am Post subject:

A lot of fake news going in this thread

patina does not shorten the life of an instrument. It protects it from corrosion.

To accelerate the formation and get a good looking patin, try near boiling sodium phosphate degreaser and let it soak for about ten minutes. Gets a real nice even color, and the different alloys get a different shade. So your ferrules, caps, receiver, casings etc will get a darker shade if they have more copper content (machined parts usually have more copper)

never tried liver of sulphur (mentioned in this thread by someone actually answering the question) but have heard of using that before.

anything with acid in it (urine, vinegar, CLR, etc) removes patina so you have to start all over again
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