Joined: 19 Nov 2014 Posts: 263 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:15 am Post subject: Hummel on Cornet?
This sounds really stupid but as a question and considering the fact that a Bach cornet is basically said to be a differently wrapped trumpet, would I get shamed for performing Hummel or Neruda on a Bb cornet?
I know Mr German Asensi, an artist for Stomvi performed Neruda on one of those 'ventil-jagdhorn' or 3 rotary valve post horn. _________________ Vincent Bach Mt Vernon Mercedes
B&S Challenger 3137/I
Hermann Ganter G7aN
A.Windisch Silber-Deluxe, Dresden
Couesnon 'Triebert Moderne' piccolo
Conn 'Connstellation' 28A
SO many more trumpets.....
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:39 am Post subject: Re: Hummel on Cornet?
TheBrassBandMajor wrote:
This sounds really stupid but as a question and considering the fact that a Bach cornet uses trumpet mandrel and basically a 'differently' wrapped trumpet, would I be shamed for performing Hummel in Eb major on a Bb cornet?
Or if I did good on a Bb cornet would I get cheered? or shamed?
From my perspective: Cheered! As a matter of fact I performed it on my Bb cornet (Getzen Eterna) years ago. I began using my trumpet but soon enough found out I was more at home with my cornet. Seemed more agile so to speak - probably I was more used to the cornet. Sound -wise I l liked the cornet, round, core, warmth, also a sense of agility.
However a music - critic in the audience asked me if I had listened to Hakan Hardenberg´s version - which I had but.....
A friend of mine cheered me up by telling me "yeah but Hakan did not defend his doctoral thesis" the essence of which was that I was a mere amateur doing his bl-dy best.
So cheers! _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Joined: 13 Oct 2013 Posts: 460 Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:39 am Post subject: Re: Hummel on Cornet?
TheBrassBandMajor wrote:
This sounds really stupid but as a question and considering the fact that a Bach cornet is basically said to be a differently wrapped trumpet, would I get shamed for performing Hummel or Neruda on a Bb cornet?
I know Mr German Asensi, an artist for Stomvi performed Neruda on one of those 'ventil-jagdhorn' or 3 rotary valve post horn.
The Neruda is a horn concerto, not a trumpet concerto.
The Hummel was written for the same performer, and same instrument (only in E, not Eb) as that of the Haydn, a keyed trumpet. Quite different from a modern trumpet, but also quite different from any kind of cornet.
Do you play trumpet? If so, why the interest in playing the Hummel on cornet? If not, of course, yes - learn the piece!
-DB _________________ Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD
Joined: 19 Nov 2014 Posts: 263 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:45 am Post subject:
I have my good B&S but why not look for new ways? I mean Guerrier rocked Hummel on a Heckel rotary trumpet, if he tried it on a Bb rotary, I could try it on Bb cornet!
I don't know why but I do tend to sound better for classical music on cornet but with big band I sound better on trumpet (of course....). _________________ Vincent Bach Mt Vernon Mercedes
B&S Challenger 3137/I
Hermann Ganter G7aN
A.Windisch Silber-Deluxe, Dresden
Couesnon 'Triebert Moderne' piccolo
Conn 'Connstellation' 28A
SO many more trumpets.....
I even know a guy who won auditions playing haydn on Eb-cornet. So why not.
Historically probably completely wrong, but if you play it well, nobody will care. Only the ones who are picky on historically correct instruments, but these guys won't come and listen to you anyway, so go ahead. _________________ Olds Recording '66
Stomvi Mahler Titan.
XO brass C trumpet
XO brass picc
Yamaha 741 D
Back to good old GR 66L
Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 1050 Location: Salisbury, MD
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:07 am Post subject:
I've played the Hummel and the Neruda on Eb cornet. I've also done the second movement of the Haydn on Eb cornet. To me, it is just a choice that I am making in the voice that I want to create. _________________ Pat Shaner
Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models.
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9345 Location: Heart of Dixie
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:08 am Post subject:
Well, the only "correct" instrument to perform the Hummel on is a keyed E trumpet, right? That said, using anything else won't duplicate the original instrument's sound, so what makes the varied instruments used in the past to play this piece any more correct than your choice? Now, if you had said you wanted to play it on a saxophone, we would have a problem... _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:42 am Post subject:
BBM, I don't think there are any real "rules," particularly because as Dale said, the actual proper instrument for that would be a keyed trumpet.
You'll sound fine on cornet. Give it a whirl. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Joined: 23 May 2009 Posts: 632 Location: Boston, MA
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:39 am Post subject:
This has come up a couple of times recently. I think that there are a number of reasons using cornet is problematic. Others have said that we don't perform the instrument on a keyed trumpet anymore, so it doesn't matter, but I'm going to try and politely poke some holes in that argument.
First, the cornet is of a completely different lineage from the trumpet. Stylistically, Weidinger's trumpet would have been a bit of a gimmick, playing off of the audience's predispositions of what a trumpet is supposed to be and do, and both Hummel and Haydn wrote their music that way. Actually, Hummel's concerto was poking fun at the principale style; Haydn's, clarino. So I think the trumpet is the most appropriate instrument available to play these two works.
Second, the Eb cornet is most at home in a British brass band. It really occupies the role that, say, a flute or piccolo would occupy in a wind band. i typically think of the trumpet as a more alto-like voice. The sound isn't right to my ear.
Finally, I guess I don't see the point. Unless Eb or Bb trumpet just isn't on the table for some reason. I'd much rather hear a knock-out, thoughtful, in-tune Haydn or Hummel on a plain old trumpet than a mediocre one on anything else. _________________ Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:37 am Post subject:
To poke a hole in your argument, it has been noted that the main difference between the modern trumpet and cornet is in the wrap - the modern trumpet is in some cases more conical than cornets. While there is probably a decent amount of difference in the sound difference of the cornet due to the shorter bell, from a sheer tubing perspective, modern trumpets are no longer truly cylindrical bore.
I did a quick Google-fu for the article where I'd read that, but I can't seem to find it. I hope I'm not misquoting it. but I think I got the gist of it right. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:52 am Post subject:
trickg wrote:
To poke a hole in your argument, it has been noted that the main difference between the modern trumpet and cornet is in the wrap - the modern trumpet is in some cases more conical than cornets. While there is probably a decent amount of difference in the sound difference of the cornet due to the shorter bell, from a sheer tubing perspective, modern trumpets are no longer truly cylindrical bore.
I did a quick Google-fu for the article where I'd read that, but I can't seem to find it. I hope I'm not misquoting it. but I think I got the gist of it right.
You've got it exactly right. The leadpipe of a modern trumpet tapers, as does the bell. The only area that is cylindrical is the valve cluster, and sometimes the main tuning slide. In honesty, the same can be said of the modern cornet.
The difference is the degree of taper...that is, how much it tapers and how much it opens up over a specific distance. For example, the bell on a flugelhorn leaves the valve cluster at about the same size as the exit of a trumpet valve cluster, but the taper rate is far more rapid and the throat of the bell is substantially larger than the throat of most trumpet bells. _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9005 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:08 pm Post subject:
You've got one question to ask; do you want it to b e authentic, or don't you care? It's that simple.
If you're a purist, then use an Eb trumpet (or other trumpet that gives you the same results.)
But there's a case that can be made for experimentation. In that case, why not uses a cornet? I personally think experimentation is fun.
But a lot depends on the expectations of the audience. I think it's all on them and your ability to sell a difference, when there is one. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Trumpet Schmumpet" _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
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Last edited by cheiden on Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
The modern Bb or Eb trumpet is no more or less authentic than a modern Bb or Eb cornet. They're close cousins, yet far-distant relatives from the natural trumpets and keyed trumpets that came before.
Choose the instrument you wish to play, and give your audience a good performance that they will enjoy. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2662 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Hummel on Cornet?
TheBrassBandMajor wrote:
This sounds really stupid but as a question and considering the fact that a Bach cornet is basically said to be a differently wrapped trumpet, would I get shamed for performing Hummel or Neruda on a Bb cornet?
Apart from the question of cornet v. trumpet, I see a red light in your use of the word 'shamed'. It appears either to be used without thought, or, you have performance opportunities where judgement rather than performance/experience is the focus.
If this is the case, just go find somewhere else to perform! Such a toxic culture is not the place to be. Now, if I'm wrong, great. But I have seen, and been the victim of, such a culture and it sucks big time. It took a young, 13 year old me many years to get over.
As to which instrument, it really matters not at all. Learn the work, learn to play it in Eb on a Bb instrument. If you have an Eb trumpet/cornet/flugel, even better!
BUT, later, if you get serious about playing and performing, you will need to know about the works, performance practice of the day, current performance practices and thoughts, etc. in order to arrive at a standard which will recognised as an informed, authentic performance. That is to found on you tube, o a few books, but via a long period of playing, learning, listening, reading and above all, THINKING.
Enjoy the journey!
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes...
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Hummel on Cornet?
andybharms wrote:
This has come up a couple of times recently. I think that there are a number of reasons using cornet is problematic. Others have said that we don't perform the instrument on a keyed trumpet anymore, so it doesn't matter, but I'm going to try and politely poke some holes in that argument.
First, the cornet is of a completely different lineage from the trumpet. Stylistically, Weidinger's trumpet would have been a bit of a gimmick, playing off of the audience's predispositions of what a trumpet is supposed to be and do, and both Hummel and Haydn wrote their music that way. Actually, Hummel's concerto was poking fun at the principale style; Haydn's, clarino. So I think the trumpet is the most appropriate instrument available to play these two works.
Second, the Eb cornet is most at home in a British brass band. It really occupies the role that, say, a flute or piccolo would occupy in a wind band. i typically think of the trumpet as a more alto-like voice. The sound isn't right to my ear.
Finally, I guess I don't see the point. Unless Eb or Bb trumpet just isn't on the table for some reason. I'd much rather hear a knock-out, thoughtful, in-tune Haydn or Hummel on a plain old trumpet than a mediocre one on anything else.
trickg wrote:
To poke a hole in your argument, it has been noted that the main difference between the modern trumpet and cornet is in the wrap - the modern trumpet is in some cases more conical than cornets. While there is probably a decent amount of difference in the sound difference of the cornet due to the shorter bell, from a sheer tubing perspective, modern trumpets are no longer truly cylindrical bore.
I did a quick Google-fu for the article where I'd read that, but I can't seem to find it. I hope I'm not misquoting it. but I think I got the gist of it right.
Yeah. Some of the innovations of the very early French Besson trumpets (pre-World War I) is essentially putting cornet-like features - conical bore tubing, tapered leadpipe on trumpets. The line between cylindrical-bore trumpet and conical bore cornets has been a bit fuzzy ever since. (which is fine, because it definitely improved the instrument)
Unless you're playing on a keyed trumpet, it's not particularly historically authentic. I suppose a valved "trumpet" is more slightly authentic than a valved "cornet" by a few percent - partially to do with the name, but that's less important that how you sound and play on a given horn.
TheBrassBandMajor wrote:
This sounds really stupid but as a question and considering the fact that a Bach cornet is basically said to be a differently wrapped trumpet, would I get shamed for performing Hummel or Neruda on a Bb cornet?
Andy Del wrote:
Apart from the question of cornet v. trumpet, I see a red light in your use of the word 'shamed'. It appears either to be used without thought, or, you have performance opportunities where judgement rather than performance/experience is the focus.
If this is the case, just go find somewhere else to perform! Such a toxic culture is not the place to be. Now, if I'm wrong, great. But I have seen, and been the victim of, such a culture and it sucks big time. It took a young, 13 year old me many years to get over.
Yeah. Hopefully, you just mean "shamed" by the trumpet purist police, in which case - who cares? (unless you're a post-grad trumpet student and your prof one of them) Seriously, they should have better things to do than bother eager young students about this stuff.
If you want to play it on cornet, go for it. Play it on the horn that it plays and sounds the best on. That's pretty much a good rule, always. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2157 Location: Little Elm, TX
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:02 pm Post subject:
It's all about playing musically, IMHO. If you sound best playing it on a purple strawberry-scented nose flute, who is to argue? It's music! We all got into music because it's fun. _________________ Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1979 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
Eastlake Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces
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That said, using anything else won't duplicate the original instrument's sound, so what makes the varied instruments used in the past to play this piece any more correct than your choice? Now, if you had said you wanted to play it on a saxophone, we would have a problem...
