When Hetmans 3 isn't thick enough ..

scottfsmith

.. try Hetmans 5 on the valves?

I have a very leaky horn I am trying to decide whether its worth a valve job or not. I found how how bad the valves were when I let them dry out a bit and it was unbelievably bad, but quickly went back to "OK" with a big dose of Hetmans 3. Its still not very good with the #3 though.

Anyway, yesterday out of desperation I decided to try the "tuning slide" Hetmans, #5, on the valves for something even thicker. The horn has strong springs and while its a bit slower its not the end of the world. The horn is doing a LOT better with the #5; it still is leaking but its less hiss during the leak test and playing is a lot better.

One other idea I tried to test the horn is to close off the bottoms, I used plumbers silicone seal tape. It helps the seal but the valves move a lot slower that way and its hard to really test out a horn with sludge valves.

Any other ideas on evaluating a horn with too-leaky valves? I don't want to spend the $$ on a valve job on a horn I am not going to play on. Also if its sort of OK with an extra super thick oil that could be good enough for occasional playing.

trombahonker · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:15 am Post subject:

I think loose valves are only a problem if they stick. Otherwise, it's probably something else about the horn that makes it play poorly.

~A

shofarguy · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:21 am Post subject:

I had a Benge 5X built in 1976. I owned it since new. About 2008 it started to have valve problems where the 1st valve would stick. I tried different oils to no avail. Eventually, I took it in to Zig Kanstul. He showed me how to check the valve pistons for excessive wear and the first valve of my horn had too much side-to-side play.

Also, the valve slides had gotten too loose. The 3rd valve slide would bubble between the inner and outer tubes. I had to hook my left middle finger over crook of the second slide to keep it from popping off. I had Kanstul rebuild all of the valve pistons and refit the slides. When the horn was finished, it was perfect mechanically. I have never had another trumpet that worked and felt so good in the hand.

In one conversation, Zig told me that the looser the slides and pistons, the looser slotting the horn will be. This was the case with my Benge. Before it was reworked, it was very loose with slots that were smeary. It was great for bending and missing notes! One other anecdote from Zig was that, as Harry James got older, he asked for trumpets with looser slotting, so he could compensate with phrasing for what he was losing in range. Zig told me that they purposely built his horns with looser slides and valve pistons to accomplish this.

All this is to say that your horn will likely have sloppy slotting because the valve pistons are so leaky. You may not realize how far gone they are until you have them rebuilt.
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scottfsmith · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:49 am Post subject:

There is also a matter of degree of leakiness - this horn has suffered over 100 years of abuse and it is seriously leaky. On really leaky horns you can't even get the low notes out right. Beyond the loose slotting it generally feels like there is a sponge stuck in the bore, its all fuzzy with attacks, lack of brilliance, lack of volume, etc.

Dale Proctor · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:21 am Post subject:

Here's your answer...

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TrentAustin · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:25 am Post subject:

Berp Bio Oil or Monster Smoother are our two choices in the shop.
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kehaulani · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:49 am Post subject:

This is just me, but if I had an instrument that couldn't take #3 valve oil, I'd think that it was about time to give it a valve job.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

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Benge 3X Trumpet
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lipshurt · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:56 am Post subject:

hetmans 3 is not very good at sealing the valves. there are oils that seal better and a still faster than hetman 3.

monster "smoother" is way better for what you need

if that is too thin, mix some mobil 1 motor oil into yamaha light synthetic. Try 40 drop with a eyedropper into a full or almost full bottle. if that is still to thin add ten more drops etc. It stays amazingly fast even as it gets thick. And does not move around the valve too much either.

Then you can get a real good handle on how the horn would play with a valve job.

Leaky valves destroy everything good about a horn.
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kehaulani · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:03 am Post subject:

post eliminated - didn't quite understand
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

LittleRusty · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:30 am Post subject:

scottfsmith · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:46 am Post subject:

kehaulani · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:27 am Post subject:

eliminated - got it wrong
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

LittleRusty · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:31 am Post subject:

nevermind

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

Hetman 4, 5 or 6 is a logical approach. If it works for you there's nothing wrong with it.
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VetPsychWars · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:37 pm Post subject:

Doctor Valve likes 5 Starr Red Zone, and he gave me a bottle that I forgot to take with me.

Tom
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1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
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yourbrass · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:20 pm Post subject:

It might look good on the wall.
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scottfsmith · Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:48 am Post subject:

kehaulani · Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:46 am Post subject:

Well, if you do, I have had two horns with valve jobs done by Jim Becker at Osmun's. You should consider him.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

GordonH · Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:51 am Post subject:

I use the Hetmann Vintage Oil (can't remember the number offhand) for my pre 1900 valves that were built to use an oil/lanolin mix. It keeps the seal for a while which is pretty good. Lets me use an instrument that just has those kind of valves, rather than being worn.
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Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

I have a botltle of Yamaha Synthetic Vintage valve oil. I use it only on a couple horns I have that I know have some leaks and such do to age.

Not sure how the Hetman Vintage compares, but that Yamaha synthetic Vintage stuff does the job pretty doggone good!!