Why nickel construction then and not now?

[HoosierConn]

I was taken with a Reynolds Argenta on eBay and bid on it, but was $100 short of winning. (A less expensive early Holton Galaxy will scratch the itch. I hope.) I wonder why there was the fascination with nickel and/or nickel silver horns and/or bells around the mid-to-late 1950s? Consider the Reynolds Argenta, the Buescher Super 400, the Holton Galaxy. Olds and York had the nickel bell flares available, or nickel plated horns. Conn nickel plated the Connstellation bells and a lot of other parts. I wonder, if the Reynolds statement is valid, that

This feature [nickel silver construction] provides the trumpet player with a ‘dark’ tone, rather than the usual sound of brass brilliance.
Instruments made of solid nickel silver tend to have a darker, clearer tone compared to standard brass alloys. Nickel silver emphasizes the lower and higher overtone series, resulting in a sound that resonates very clearly in the corresponding registers. Nickel silver horns also tend to project more dramatically than other brass alloys and can easily throw an ensemble section out of balance without care; they are often used where a homogeneous section balance isn’t emphasized, e.g. as a soloist instrument or in a small mixed-instrument horn line. (This from the contemporacorner.com site.)

Why would the market be seeking a "dark" tone, with a lot of projection? Maynard wasn't "the man" at the time, but Stan Kenton was around, right?

Any ideas? With everything being market-driven then and now, I wonder what the thought process was then?

[1jazzyalex]

Interesting question!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_silver

Maybe it's harder to work with? I've seen pieces of "silverware" made out of it and when you tap them they really ring. And I know some trumpets (and saxes and let's not even bring up flutes) have sterling silver parts so people are willing to pay extra for a different metal.
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Yamaha 8335LA with Blessing 3C, 5C, Schilke 11A4A

[Irving]

I had a couple of Argentas from the 60's. These horns had a .468 bore while the earlier ones had a .462 bore. The later horns had a small bell. Don't know about the earlier ones. Anyway, it wasn't a dark horn by any means.

[stumac]

Nickle silver is certainly harder to work than yellow brass, I made a 1" wide Kranz for a project horn, it took 27 anealings to get the final shape.

A visit to the Eclipse factory I played the MY, MR and MS belled horns, the MS was the brightest with Nickle silver bell tail and throat with yellow brass flair.

Leigh showed me a Nickle silver bell that he had tried and considered was too bright.

I have a Holton Super Collegiate with Nickle silver flair on a copper throat and tail that is not dark at all.

Regards, Stuart.

[Benge.nut]

"The usual formulation is 60% copper, 20% nickel and 20% zinc"

This I did not know. I was not aware that nickel used in instruments was primarily a brass alloy.

I was always confused, is nickel plate is used on woodwind instrument keys, and flutes and French horns, why is it sometimes the lacquer on top of nickel instruments like the Conn Connstellations?

And those 36b and 38b trumpets sound pretty bright to me!! I wouldn't call them dark, but maybe my ear is off!!

[James Becker]

Generally speaking the hardness of nickel vs yellow brass can be offset by increasing the bore, bell size or bell alloy. I like to think of it as being part of "the recipe" that balances sound quality along with blow resistance.

In the making of French Horns nickel silver is used for large bell Keuspe style models, i.e. Conn 8D, Yamaha YHR-668N and alike. The more complex overtones produced by nickel silver and added blow resistance compliments these wider bell designs. For more focused medium bell designs by Knopf, Geyer, Yamaha YHR-667 and alike yellow brass is preferred.

More information can be found here on the effects of bell size and alloys used on Engelbert Schmid Horns http://www.osmun.com/schmid_bell much of which applies to all brasswinds regardless of voice.

The use of nickel silver for trumpet /cornet inner slides will often be matched with gold brass bells and larger bores/bells. This also holds true of Bach LT model trombones where nickel silver outer hand slides are matched with gold brass bells for their LT36G/LT36BG, LT42G/LT42BG, LT50BG. The exception being the smaller bore LT12, LT16 and LT16M models.

I hope this is helpful
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

[chapahi]

check this out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlDZ7y4I6f8
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Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super

[Irving]

Nickel silver was used as trim on all Bach Strad regular weight trumpets, until they stopped using it on silver plated Bb (and possibly C trumpets as well). They still use nickel silver trim on their lacquered Strads (not on any of the lightweights though). As Jim mentioned, it was part of the recipe, and the blend of nickel silver and brass made for a great sound. Other brands of trumpets use both metals as well. Some makers will make their lead pipes out of nickel silver since they aren't susceptible to red rot like brass is. The Argenta is the only trumpet (as far as I know) that was completely made out of nickel silver. Why doesn't anybody make nickel silver trumpets now? I guess that it was tried, and not deemed superior to brass and brass/nickel. It is more difficult to work with, and it must be more expensive (otherwise why did Bach decide to stop using it on their silver plated Strads?

[Benge.nut]

[Danbassin]

The folks at MK Drawing have a nice set of working descriptions for various alloys here: https://www.mkdrawing.com/alloy-options/

And, of virtually-equal importance is their caveat, "PLEASE NOTE: The above descriptions are to used as a guide only…the terms “brighter, darker, warmer etc.” are very relative terms; what one player considers bright may not be considered bright by someone else"

That said, Mr. Becker's statement above, and link to Osmun's horn bell descriptions is also invaluable. We - or at least I - tend to think of other brass instrument families as being a bit more 'open-minded' when it comes to instrument designs, if only to think of how long the 'entire' trumpet world was playing silver plated Bach 37s. Sure they're good horns, sure they work well and aid the player in producing a 'characteristic' trumpet sound, but we shouldn't look too far past the phenomenon of the 'visual ear' when it comes to unusual materials and design features not taking off in the trumpet world.

(French) Horns aren't immune to it, either, as witnessed by the relatively recent move of the 'entire' world to nickle Conn 8D style instruments, and then back away, most recently to triple horns made in yellow brass.

There are positives and negatives with incorporating any boutique design innovation into a horn, and, as Mr. Becker pointed out, many design adjustments to best complement and highlight the positives of these features.

On a personal note, I recently satisfied a musical-material curiosity dating back to when I got my first horn (yes, a Silver-plated Bach 37, ML, 25, etcetcetc) --- I remember playing several horns before convincing myself that the standard was the best, and I vividly remember one non-standard horn that had some really special about it. This was back in the early-mid 90s, at Sam Ash on W 48th Street in NYC. The horn that I still haven't forgotten was also a Bach, but a "Sterling Plus" bell (I can't recall which mandrel) on a Lightweight Reverse body.
Cut to just a few weeks back, and I found a sweet deal on a Sterling Silver 72 with a raw brass body and reverse pipe. I've fitted it with an aftermarket leadpipe that I'd previously been using on another horn (still in reverse configuration, though) and am having a great time getting to know the unique properties of this non-brass part, and am happy to have it as an alternative color for my palette.

Best,

-DB
_________________
Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD

[Richard III]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlDZ7y4I6f8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlDZ7y4I6f8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaNwWFGz970&t=121s

First one is the Adams A6 above. The second is an all nickel plated Winslow Adams A6. The last is a 1948 Martin Committee #3.

Really different sounds. I like the first one the best.
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[razeontherock]

I love my nickel plated horns! They do seem to share 'something' in common, but I hesitate to conclude I could re-create that on a horn not designed to be nickel plated.

Nickel also seems to be the most expensive part of making a horn.

[James Becker]

To be clear, nickel silver is an alloy from which an instrument's components are fabricated. Likewise 925 sterling silver is an alloy of 92.5% silver and the remainder made up of copper or other.

Nickel plating on the other hand is a thin decorative finish applied over an instrument usually made from brass, copper, nickel silver or other.

Visually similar, nickel silver will have a bit of a green hue and cupro-nickel a bluish hue (similar to the look of chrome), while nickel plate will have more of a mirror like appearance and is harder than nickel silver.

I hope this is helpful.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

[Voltrane]

[Danbassin]

[razeontherock]

[HoosierConn]

[quote="Benge.nut"]

I was always confused, is nickel plate is used on woodwind instrument keys, and flutes and French horns, why is it sometimes the lacquer on top of nickel instruments like the Conn Connstellations?

According to Sean Mason, a tech who moderates the "Trumpets For Sale Or Trade" page on Facebook, nickel will tarnish just like other metals.

[Crazy Finn]

[chapahi]

[James Becker]