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p76 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 1070 Location: The Golden City of OZ
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Good point dstdenis, the style of writing for bands has changed as well (and for the better, I might add).
Possibly a chicken and egg thing - Bands for popular entertainment were pulling out versions of newer tunes that led to a brighter style, which led to commissioned pieces taking advantage of that new "skill" in a band's repertoire of abilities and so on and so on in a bit of a feedback loop.
Most bands are still required (and like) to play hymns, and I think that what has happened is that while bands have become brighter, they can still "darken it down" when it is appropriate.
For me there is still no better sound than that of a Brass Band playing a hymn. We have just had ANZAC Day here downunder, and I never get sick of hearing the Bands play Abide with me and Eternal Father Strong to save...
Cheers,
Roger _________________ Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel |
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davidm New Member
Joined: 03 Mar 2012 Posts: 7
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Having been to the Australian National Band championships over Easter the Yamaha Xeno (and now I guess it will be Neo) cornets seem to pretty much have a stranglehold on the higher grade bands, so I guess that at least here the big broad sound is pretty much "standard" now.
Certainly the group I play with issues Xenos to the B grade band - the C grade one gets whatever is left over, which is a mix of student-grade Yamahas and random older Bessons. |
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p76 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 1070 Location: The Golden City of OZ
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Yamaha have been cornering the market in cornets here David, without a doubt. I'm secretary at my Band (current D grade champion band of Victoria ), and when we go and buy cornets Yamaha can't be beaten as a value for money proposition.
When they were swapping to the New from the Xeno, we purchased 3 Xenos for the price of one Sovereign. Deals aren't that good now, but Yamaha still considerably cheaper.
Yamahas are also easier for lower level players to play, which means that people often start with a Yamaha, and then stick to what they know through their playing lives....
Cheers,
Roger _________________ Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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p76 wrote: | Louise,
Hi Roger
An interesting topic,
Thanks, and thanks very much for your input.
and Bob's reply probably explains most of the change. Always interesting to hear older recordings of Brass Bands to hear the change in tone.
Another factor, perhaps less in the UK than down here in OZ, is that a lot of BBB players come from the school system, where they usually learn trumpet and orchestral/jazz style repertoire, before being hoiked into a Brass Band by one of their friends etc. Over time I think that has changed the approach of cornet sections here and there.
I understand, thanks.
Also, the development of mouthpieces is something that shouldn't be forgotten - again a lot of the science of that has been driven from the trumpet side of the ledger.
I fully agree.
As to the difference between the Round Stamp and 928 Sovs, having played both I'd say there isn't much of a one really, both great cornets if you get a good one. We have a new member at our Band that has the most beautifully preserved Round Stamp I've seen in ages, and it plays like a dream.
I again understand, thanks, and Bob is saying much the same. I'd say that my Imperial is different, but maybe not so if compared to the 920 or 923 rather than the 921.
I think the "break" between old-fashioned cornets and modern ones occurred before the Round Stamp - probably even before the Imperial. Just my thoughts though.
I really appreciate you thoughts.
Cheers,
Roger
Take care
Lou |
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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dstdenis wrote: | I'm sort of an outsider looking in, but I've noticed that recent albums by bands that I follow (Black Dyke, Cory) often feature new compositions that seem to call for big, broad, bright playing from the band (e.g., Fanfare and Celebration by Philip Sparke, or Fanfare in Iubilio by Thomas Doss, or Perihelion by Philip Sparke). I read comments about how BBB cornetists are supposed to play with a dark mellow sound, then I listen to these recordings and I don't see it. These pieces call for fiery, brilliant playing, and that's how these bands play them.
Hi dstdenis
I totally agree.
These albums also include a few pieces that call for sweet cantilena playing, but there seems to be more emphasis on the barn burners.
It seems to be the case. Our previous conductor favoured this type of brass band repertoire. Also since I play in amateur bands, a lot of our gigs require playing pieces which the audience are going to enjoy.
This year we are doing the Munsters, the Adams Family, Best of Bond, Aces High, Is this the way to Amarillo etc.?
In my opinion, pieces like the Munsters don't really require a brass band cornet tone. My previous brass band used a matched set of Bach 184MLs with predominantly Bach C cup mouthpieces. Since this cornet in my opinion sounds like a richer more intimate version of a Bach trumpet,
and again in my opinion responds to mouthpieces like a trumpet, i.e. getting only brighter rather than harsh, bright and brittle sounding, which I think would likely to be the case with a more typical brass band cornet such as the Sovereign, as non traditional as the Bach 184ML is, I think that it works very well for pop tunes, show tunes and easy listening repertoire, but not so much so for hymns and traditional brass band repertoire. Since my previous brass band were more likely to play Glen Miller or Georgia on my Mind than hymns, I think that their cornet choice worked very well.
Take care
Lou
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_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:00 am Post subject: |
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p76 wrote: | Good point dstdenis, the style of writing for bands has changed as well (and for the better, I might add).
Possibly a chicken and egg thing - Bands for popular entertainment were pulling out versions of newer tunes that led to a brighter style, which led to commissioned pieces taking advantage of that new "skill" in a band's repertoire of abilities and so on and so on in a bit of a feedback loop.
Hi Roger
I think that you make a very good point here.
Most bands are still required (and like) to play hymns, and I think that what has happened is that while bands have become brighter, they can still "darken it down" when it is appropriate.
Sounds reasonable.
For me there is still no better sound than that of a Brass Band playing a hymn. We have just had ANZAC Day here downunder, and I never get sick of hearing the Bands play Abide with me and Eternal Father Strong to save...
I completely agree. I love to hear the salvation army bands play hymns.
Cheers,
Roger
Take care
Lou |
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:02 am Post subject: |
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davidm wrote: | Having been to the Australian National Band championships over Easter the Yamaha Xeno (and now I guess it will be Neo) cornets seem to pretty much have a stranglehold on the higher grade bands, so I guess that at least here the big broad sound is pretty much "standard" now.
Certainly the group I play with issues Xenos to the B grade band - the C grade one gets whatever is left over, which is a mix of student-grade Yamahas and random older Bessons. |
Hi davidm
Interesting, thanks. Also I hear that Yamaha cornets are popular in the UK, I don't see many in my part of the UK (Suffolk/Essex border), and I have the only Xeno in my brass band, in a section of predominantly Besson cornets.
Take care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:06 am Post subject: |
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p76 wrote: | Yamaha have been cornering the market in cornets here David, without a doubt. I'm secretary at my Band (current D grade champion band of Victoria ), and when we go and buy cornets Yamaha can't be beaten as a value for money proposition.
When they were swapping to the New from the Xeno, we purchased 3 Xenos for the price of one Sovereign. Deals aren't that good now, but Yamaha still considerably cheaper.
Yamahas are also easier for lower level players to play, which means that people often start with a Yamaha, and then stick to what they know through their playing lives....
Cheers,
Roger |
Hi Roger
Thank you. There is very little difference in the UK between the price of the Yamaha Neo and Besson Sovereign. Phil Parkers in London list the Neo at £2380 and the Sovereign at £2409.74.
Take care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:16 am Post subject: |
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I think also the tendency for leading players to have studied trumpet or played in military bands had an influence on the sound. When I was a boy you couldn't study cornet or euphonium so people switched to tuba and trumpet. It was a class thing really.
Repertoire got more symphonic too and this stoked the equipment development end of the cycle. So you had the B cup wick mouthpieces and freer blowing instruments leading to more volume.
My cornet sound is considered old fashioned and generally not liked by conductors. My trumpet sound is completely different. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Louise Finch wrote: | ...Also since I play in amateur bands, a lot of our gigs require playing pieces which the audience are going to enjoy.
This year we are doing the Munsters, the Adams Family, Best of Bond, Aces High, Is this the way to Amarillo etc.?
In my opinion, pieces like the Munsters don't really require a brass band cornet tone... |
A little off topic, but this type of rubbish is the main reason I resigned my chair at brass band and went on the sub list instead. Too much time and work invested in rehearsing and performing music I got nothing out of. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:47 am Post subject: |
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GordonH wrote: | I think also the tendency for leading players to have studied trumpet or played in military bands had an influence on the sound. When I was a boy you couldn't study cornet or euphonium so people switched to tuba and trumpet. It was a class thing really.
Repertoire got more symphonic too and this stoked the equipment development end of the cycle. So you had the B cup wick mouthpieces and freer blowing instruments leading to more volume.
Hi GordonH
Thank you very much.
My cornet sound is considered old fashioned and generally not liked by conductors.
Sounds good to me. I personally liked your sound on your Lewington-McCann mouthpiece, a little lighter and brighter than some of the other mouthpieces which you recorded on, but maybe that is just me, and this lighter brighter sound is probably more old fashioned than some of the others.
Come to think of it, I suppose Philip McCann is an example of a player with a more old fashioned sound and approach. I've always thought that he has a rather unusual cornet tone with what to my taste is a little too much vibrato. I'd however say that at least in my opinion, his technique stands out to me. As good as the other top cornet soloists are/were, there is something to me about just how cleanly and neatly he plays, and how evenly he plays throughout the registers. To me, his ballad playing is just beautiful!
i.e. Just picked at randomn, as it coincidentally followed the clip I was listening to before:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE_gZgGSKQ8&index=3&list=PL7cN3pdB99LrutXclCC9ohP2_h24ErheG
My trumpet sound is completely different.
I understand, thanks.
Take care
Lou |
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Last edited by Louise Finch on Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:06 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:50 am Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | Louise Finch wrote: | ...Also since I play in amateur bands, a lot of our gigs require playing pieces which the audience are going to enjoy.
This year we are doing the Munsters, the Adams Family, Best of Bond, Aces High, Is this the way to Amarillo etc.?
In my opinion, pieces like the Munsters don't really require a brass band cornet tone... |
A little off topic, but this type of rubbish is the main reason I resigned my chair at brass band and went on the sub list instead. Too much time and work invested in rehearsing and performing music I got nothing out of. |
Hi Dale
I see your point. Although I love traditional brass band repertoire, I don't mind this sort of thing, as long as I like the piece, it is a reasonable arrangement and it is not played to death. I was with my last brass band for eighteen years, and I got completely fed up of some pieces that we seemed to play on every gig for many years, especially if I could take or leave them to begin with.
Take care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:24 am Post subject: |
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Hi
I was thinking about this topic in my brass band last night. We played a wide range of repertoire, a lot of it sweet and delicate, but we spent some time last night, as we were trialling a potential new conductor, playing our old favourite, the Best of Bond.
There is a cornet solo in the middle of You Only Live Twice, which is pitched pretty low.
Basically this one, which is a pretty poor quality which I have found on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k8u8q3dCiI
When I play this, I concentrate on a big full projecting sound with no vibrato. A traditional brass band sound is not what I am looking for, but James Bond is hardly traditional brass band repertoire, so I feel justified in sound concept.
I selected the first clip despite its poor quality, because I feel that the soloist has a sound concept along the lines of what I feel is appropriate for this piece.
This two recordings by young players, give it a more cornet-like approach (especially the second one) than I have in my head.
i.e.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3p7JsYukNc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R50So1QoTUU
I noticed last night just how different my cornet sound is depending what I am playing. I don't have the same sound concept for the solo in the Best of Bond, so repertoire probably does have big effect on cornet sound.
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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trumpetera Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 1210 Location: Gothenburg,Sweden
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:34 am Post subject: |
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Bob Stevenson wrote: | I don't think Wick was a Guards player as he mainly did West End show playing.... |
Denis Wick was solo trombone in the LSO. For instance at the time when a certain young Yorkshireman was on trial on solo trumpet when the LSO recorded the soundtrack for Superman.
That opening chord... _________________ Principal trumpet Gothenburg Opera Orchestra
Bach LT 37 Bb (Mr. Findleys old)
Bach Mt Vernon 1957 Bb
Bach NY ML 1943 vintage Bb
Very old YTR-6335
Bach/Malone/Lechner C
Malone-Bach 229 C
H.Ganter Bb
Schagerl Wienna (older model) C
Parker Natural |
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SirBuzzALot Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Jul 2011 Posts: 103 Location: England
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:01 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | SirBuzzALot wrote: | I band near me requested that all back row players use a wick 2 (no letter) otherwise they would not be able to play in the competition!! They all did and just had to get used to them. |
What?!
Speaking as a conductor, it is the aural results that are important not the equipment. That should be left up to the player in whom you should give discretion, (not to mention trust and respect). |
Yes I thought it a bit much, but it happens. The MD must have thought it wise at the time as I recall they went on to win....
Louise Finch wrote: |
Thank you very much for sharing. It sounds very good, and the band seem to be of a pretty reasonable standard.
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: |
ps what a charming performance Sir Buzzalot! Thanks! |
Thanks, its an old piece published in 1926 - I dont think it gets played much these days but was fun to play - just had to get the tripple tonguing tight together. Apart from a few fluffed notes from me it went ok as a first performance of it.
Dale Proctor wrote: | Louise Finch wrote: | ...Also since I play in amateur bands, a lot of our gigs require playing pieces which the audience are going to enjoy.
This year we are doing the Munsters, the Adams Family, Best of Bond, Aces High, Is this the way to Amarillo etc.?
In my opinion, pieces like the Munsters don't really require a brass band cornet tone... |
A little off topic, but this type of rubbish is the main reason I resigned my chair at brass band and went on the sub list instead. Too much time and work invested in rehearsing and performing music I got nothing out of. |
Its amazing what the general public will like. You can play an amazing well written test piece or something you really like but all the audience want to hear is a rendition of the latest pop song! Last year i went to a Cory concert and they played amazing stuff only for me to hear an elderly chap in the audience say "they play very well but not really anything you want to hear" he left during the interval.
Al _________________ Yamaha Meastro Bb Cornet
B&H Round Stamp LB Sovereign Bb Cornet
F Besson Meha Flugelhorn (Kanstul) |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:14 am Post subject: |
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SirBuzzALot wrote: | ...Its amazing what the general public will like. You can play an amazing well written test piece or something you really like but all the audience want to hear is a rendition of the latest pop song! Last year i went to a Cory concert and they played amazing stuff only for me to hear an elderly chap in the audience say "they play very well but not really anything you want to hear" he left during the interval.
Al |
Test pieces don't really appeal to a general audience, but when we switched from programming brass band arrangements of more serious music to the show tune/movie theme/pop drivel, the audience attendance didn't increase at our concerts. I was fine with playing a pop tune or two on concerts, but they gradually became almost 100% pop with one or two serious pieces thrown in (unless it was a themed concert such as cowboy movie music).
Yes, the music needs to appeal to the audience, but given the flat audience attendance numbers, all the switch to pop music programs did was run me and a few other band members off. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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dmamazon Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 177 Location: Hilliard, Ohio
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:12 am Post subject: |
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What a great topic! Recently, in response to a thread about the Brass Band Cornet sound here, as usual I wrote a pretty long post and ended up discarding it. I seem to do that alot:)
Anyway...YES. The sound is much bigger and broader. It is quite amazing how big that the cornet sections in the established bands can sound. Black Dyke completely blew me away at Brass in Concert last year...well most of the bands just a HUGE cornet sound and could turn it on immediately...then play a barely audible whisper.
From what I gather, the brass band cornet section has become its own entity..with several different sounds making a whole. There isn't just 1 sound! Here in the U.S. we just strive to be like an orchestra..players with matching tones and styles. Will it blend! That is the question!
Here is what I think a British style brass band is made up of in the cornet section:
Principal: The most beautiful sound of the section...and yes this has gravitated toward a larger, more broad sound. The featured soloist.
Bumper: A beautiful sound, just like the principal so they can take the solos if the principal is ill but also the ability to do most of the HEAVY lifting and playing on the top solo cornet lines. A hard seat!
Tutti Solo Cornets: Here is where the biggest, broadest sounds come from...these players put out the most sound of the solo row. These players can concentrate on just getting that big, broad sound on the solo parts.
Sop: Obviously a smaller sound(unless you are Paul Richards)..MOST of the brightness in the section comes from the Sop.
Repiano: Bridges the gap between the Big, Broad sound of all the rest of the cornets and the Sop. I like to call it the "Orchestral Trumpet" of the brass band. Brighter than the rest of the cornets...but also the ability to solo with that different sound. The brass band composers write for this sound!
2nd/3rd: Big, Broad sound...but have to be able to put out an ENORMOUS amount of sound to balance. At brass in concert I was just floored by how much the low back row cornets could put out.
So, to answer the threads question...YES i think that the brass band movement has went to a Bigger, Broader sound, but you can really dial in your sound to the job you will do in the band...if you are wanting to seriously do the brass band thing correct. Now take it...the majority of brass bands in the U.S. especially but UK as well are basically community bands that are NON contesting and nobody is concerned with dialing in sounds! There is nothing more terrifying than hearing a 3rd cornet part played on a small bore cornet with a Schilke 13a4a cornet mpc:)
Sorry for the length, big brass band geek here;) |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:36 am Post subject: |
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I wonder whether its (partly) a gradual adaptation to differences in arranging and writing?
Less duplicated lines in the writing (in many cases) may mean that each individual voice needs to carry more breadth and weight to fill out and balance up to the rest of the band (which hasn't gotten any quieter over time), rather than relying on the volume and complexity in sound coming from multiple players playing the same lines in unison?
Like anything, there do seem to be "fashions" or "trends" in what the preferred sound is among the top bands and it does seem (to me) that whilst the instruments and volume may have been headed in a certain direction, the sound itself meanders a bit more. In the late 90's and early noughties certain bands seemed to have much "harder" sounds than the warmer sounds in the later noughties and early 2010's, followed by what feels now like it's heading towards a kind of sterility in certain top bands ... and all on largely the same kind of equipment.
This is all perhaps the most pronounced among the very strongest bands and players, with the most control over the sounds they're producing, perhaps it's more obvious in the lower section bands that this kind of equipment "tends" towards a certain kind of sound?
Last edited by TKSop on Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:54 am; edited 2 times in total |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:49 am Post subject: |
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I think the tendency towards narrow and overly bright sop sounds (that dmamazon brings up above) is perhaps a seperate topic for a seperate thread...
But...
I think there's a lot of "me-too-ism" going on there.
Peter Roberts was an astonishing player and could turn on an astonishing level of brightness at will - but he had the control to not overdo it unless the music called for it.
Unfortunately, in their haste to copy that exhilarating "take over the band" tone, too many players either use it far too often (or indeed, all the time) or compromise the rest of their playing to a significant extent to achieve it... they miss the most impressive aspect of Mr Roberts playing - the control to only use it when he wanted to and the tact to (generally) only ever want use when it would enhance the music.
There's a time and a place for brightness (and there should be a suitable amount of it in the cornet parts too) - but most of the time, a classy sops place is to hold the highest line without producing such a bright tone that it draws focus from the overall picture.
I think this is a real shame - a beautiful sop sound is incredibly pleasing to my ears, and they're becoming increasingly scarce at the expense of vulgar screechers.
A description our conductor gave us recently (whilst working on Pageantry for the areas) was that the band sound should be a great big bubble - any angular or piercing tone would pierce the bubble and its beauty would be gone, and sounds hiding away would distort the shape of the bubble and spoil the uniformity of that perfect sphere of sound that should be the goal.
I found this a beautiful way of describing it - and in this case, a beautiful illustration of why such (common) vulgar sop playing is truly a blight on the brass band scene.
(Rant over... Sorry, have to get this one off the chest from time to time)
Last edited by TKSop on Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:06 am; edited 4 times in total |
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ajwan Regular Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2017 Posts: 47 Location: Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:55 am Post subject: |
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dmamazon wrote: | The sound is much bigger and broader. It is quite amazing how big that the cornet sections in the established bands can sound. Black Dyke completely blew me away at Brass in Concert last year...well most of the bands just a HUGE cornet sound and could turn it on immediately...then play a barely audible whisper. |
In terms of the intonation, would you say the cornet sections have become more trumpet-like (in terms of brightness)? What about individual soloists?
I'm still surprised at how bright James Watson's cornet solos were in the piece I linked to here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KARQn0p2us4 (conducted by none other than Denis Wick himself).
But as someone has pointed out, it's likely because being an orchestral trumpet player had a major influence in his playing. _________________ Besson Sovereign BE928 (Germany) |
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