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Modern brass band cornet sound being bigger and broader


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Bob Stevenson
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the upper sections of the UK 'brass band movement' cornet sections are NOT more "trumpet-like",...in fact listening to classical and topical orchestral recording I do detect that things might just be moving in the opposite direction with orchestral trumpet sections displaying better flexibility and sound control than a couple of years ago....
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirBuzzALot wrote:

Louise Finch wrote:

Thank you very much for sharing. It sounds very good, and the band seem to be of a pretty reasonable standard.

Seymor B Fudd wrote:

ps what a charming performance Sir Buzzalot! Thanks!


Thanks,

You are very welcome.

its an old piece published in 1926 - I dont think it gets played much these days but was fun to play - just had to get the tripple tonguing tight together. Apart from a few fluffed notes from me it went ok as a first performance of it.

Sounded good to me.

Dale Proctor wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
...Also since I play in amateur bands, a lot of our gigs require playing pieces which the audience are going to enjoy.

This year we are doing the Munsters, the Adams Family, Best of Bond, Aces High, Is this the way to Amarillo etc.?

In my opinion, pieces like the Munsters don't really require a brass band cornet tone...


A little off topic, but this type of rubbish is the main reason I resigned my chair at brass band and went on the sub list instead. Too much time and work invested in rehearsing and performing music I got nothing out of.


Its amazing what the general public will like. You can play an amazing well written test piece or something you really like but all the audience want to hear is a rendition of the latest pop song! Last year i went to a Cory concert and they played amazing stuff only for me to hear an elderly chap in the audience say "they play very well but not really anything you want to hear" he left during the interval.

I fully understand what you mean. My old band master formed the band around 40 years ago and was band master until his death two years ago at the age of nearly 92. He had started on tenor horn in his Dad's brass band as a youngster, switched to cornet when the older players were called away to the war, had his own dance band for years, and started the brass band to give a playing avenue to the group of youngsters he was teaching at the time.

He was familiar with all the traditional brass band repertoire, but not really the modern pieces, as his band played a lot of pop tunes, show tunes, dance band pieces and even trad. From an audience perspective they were and are doing something right, as they always have a big audience, but as a long term band member, I did get fed up of some of the pieces.

My old band master went to a Black Dyke concert around 10 years ago. Great he said, but I didn't know a single piece they played.


I really think it depends on the type of gig and the target audience. If you are playing at a village fete to the general public, the majority of which probably wouldn't chose to attend a brass band concert, I think that adding some show tunes, tunes from popular films, standards and pop, would probably mean that there is something for most tastes.

Take care

Lou


Al

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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
SirBuzzALot wrote:
...Its amazing what the general public will like. You can play an amazing well written test piece or something you really like but all the audience want to hear is a rendition of the latest pop song! Last year i went to a Cory concert and they played amazing stuff only for me to hear an elderly chap in the audience say "they play very well but not really anything you want to hear" he left during the interval.

Al


Test pieces don't really appeal to a general audience, but when we switched from programming brass band arrangements of more serious music to the show tune/movie theme/pop drivel, the audience attendance didn't increase at our concerts.

Hi Dale

That is a real shame.


I was fine with playing a pop tune or two on concerts, but they gradually became almost 100% pop with one or two serious pieces thrown in (unless it was a themed concert such as cowboy movie music).

I suppose we are much the same. Film music seems to be popular now as a replacement for the older show tune selections. I quite like the Best of Bond. We've also done Jurassic Park, Pirates of the Caribbean, Les Miserables (which I appreciate is a show although there is a film version). We have a few brass band standards however for this year, although hardly highbrow, Aces High, the Floral Dance, Amarito Roca. I wanted to do the Thievish Magpie, which has got as far as getting in the pad.

We have however done some big more orchestral style works at some of our recent concerts, Mars from the planets one year, A night on a bare mountain another.


Yes, the music needs to appeal to the audience, but given the flat audience attendance numbers, all the switch to pop music programs did was run me and a few other band members off.

I understand.

Take Care

Lou

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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmamazon wrote:
What a great topic!

Hi dmamazon

Thank you very much.


Recently, in response to a thread about the Brass Band Cornet sound here, as usual I wrote a pretty long post and ended up discarding it. I seem to do that alot:)
Anyway...YES. The sound is much bigger and broader.

Thank you very much for confirming this.

It is quite amazing how big that the cornet sections in the established bands can sound. Black Dyke completely blew me away at Brass in Concert last year...well most of the bands just a HUGE cornet sound and could turn it on immediately...then play a barely audible whisper.

Yes, I agree. The top brass bands have a huge dynamic range.

From what I gather, the brass band cornet section has become its own entity..with several different sounds making a whole. There isn't just 1 sound! Here in the U.S. we just strive to be like an orchestra..players with matching tones and styles. Will it blend! That is the question!
Here is what I think a British style brass band is made up of in the cornet section:
Principal: The most beautiful sound of the section...and yes this has gravitated toward a larger, more broad sound. The featured soloist.
Bumper: A beautiful sound, just like the principal so they can take the solos if the principal is ill but also the ability to do most of the HEAVY lifting and playing on the top solo cornet lines. A hard seat!
Tutti Solo Cornets: Here is where the biggest, broadest sounds come from...these players put out the most sound of the solo row. These players can concentrate on just getting that big, broad sound on the solo parts.
Sop: Obviously a smaller sound(unless you are Paul Richards)..MOST of the brightness in the section comes from the Sop.
Repiano: Bridges the gap between the Big, Broad sound of all the rest of the cornets and the Sop. I like to call it the "Orchestral Trumpet" of the brass band. Brighter than the rest of the cornets...but also the ability to solo with that different sound. The brass band composers write for this sound!
2nd/3rd: Big, Broad sound...but have to be able to put out an ENORMOUS amount of sound to balance. At brass in concert I was just floored by how much the low back row cornets could put out.

Very interesting, thanks very much.

So, to answer the threads question...YES i think that the brass band movement has went to a Bigger, Broader sound, but you can really dial in your sound to the job you will do in the band...if you are wanting to seriously do the brass band thing correct. Now take it...the majority of brass bands in the U.S. especially but UK as well are basically community bands that are NON contesting and nobody is concerned with dialing in sounds! There is nothing more terrifying than hearing a 3rd cornet part played on a small bore cornet with a Schilke 13a4a cornet mpc:)

Thanks very much.

Sorry for the length, big brass band geek here;)

No problem, I don't mind longer posts at all.

Take care

Lou

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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
I wonder whether its (partly) a gradual adaptation to differences in arranging and writing?

Less duplicated lines in the writing (in many cases) may mean that each individual voice needs to carry more breadth and weight to fill out and balance up to the rest of the band (which hasn't gotten any quieter over time), rather than relying on the volume and complexity in sound coming from multiple players playing the same lines in unison?

Hi TKSop

You raise an interesting point, and maybe.


Like anything, there do seem to be "fashions" or "trends" in what the preferred sound is among the top bands and it does seem (to me) that whilst the instruments and volume may have been headed in a certain direction, the sound itself meanders a bit more. In the late 90's and early noughties certain bands seemed to have much "harder" sounds than the warmer sounds in the later noughties and early 2010's, followed by what feels now like it's heading towards a kind of sterility in certain top bands ... and all on largely the same kind of equipment.

I understand, thanks.

This is all perhaps the most pronounced among the very strongest bands and players, with the most control over the sounds they're producing, perhaps it's more obvious in the lower section bands that this kind of equipment "tends" towards a certain kind of sound?

Quite possibly.

Thank you very much for your views.

Best wishes

Lou

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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
I think the tendency towards narrow and overly bright sop sounds (that dmamazon brings up above) is perhaps a seperate topic for a seperate thread...
But...

I think there's a lot of "me-too-ism" going on there.
Peter Roberts was an astonishing player and could turn on an astonishing level of brightness at will - but he had the control to not overdo it unless the music called for it.
Unfortunately, in their haste to copy that exhilarating "take over the band" tone, too many players either use it far too often (or indeed, all the time) or compromise the rest of their playing to a significant extent to achieve it... they miss the most impressive aspect of Mr Roberts playing - the control to only use it when he wanted to and the tact to (generally) only ever want use when it would enhance the music.

There's a time and a place for brightness (and there should be a suitable amount of it in the cornet parts too) - but most of the time, a classy sops place is to hold the highest line without producing such a bright tone that it draws focus from the overall picture.

I think this is a real shame - a beautiful sop sound is incredibly pleasing to my ears, and they're becoming increasingly scarce at the expense of vulgar screechers.

Hi again Tom

I understand, thanks. Not being a Sop player, I haven't really anything to add.


A description our conductor gave us recently (whilst working on Pageantry for the areas) was that the band sound should be a great big bubble - any angular or piercing tone would pierce the bubble and its beauty would be gone, and sounds hiding away would distort the shape of the bubble and spoil the uniformity of that perfect sphere of sound that should be the goal.
I found this a beautiful way of describing it - and in this case, a beautiful illustration of why such (common) vulgar sop playing is truly a blight on the brass band scene.

Sounds a good way of describing it.

(Rant over... Sorry, have to get this one off the chest from time to time)

No problem.

Take Care

Lou

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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ajwan wrote:
dmamazon wrote:
The sound is much bigger and broader. It is quite amazing how big that the cornet sections in the established bands can sound. Black Dyke completely blew me away at Brass in Concert last year...well most of the bands just a HUGE cornet sound and could turn it on immediately...then play a barely audible whisper.


In terms of the intonation, would you say the cornet sections have become more trumpet-like (in terms of brightness)? What about individual soloists?

I'm still surprised at how bright James Watson's cornet solos were in the piece I linked to here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KARQn0p2us4 (conducted by none other than Denis Wick himself).

But as someone has pointed out, it's likely because being an orchestral trumpet player had a major influence in his playing.


Hi Andrew

I don't think that this last point is likely to be true, although this is just my opinion, and I'm not arguing the point.

As detailed in the following, which I have already posted on either this or your associated thread, James Watson had a very celebrated early career on cornet before even switching to trumpet.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/feb/16/james-watson-obituary

I honestly think that it is just a combination of his sound (although I haven't listened to enough of his other recordings to be sure of this) combined with the smaller sound of the time.

Take care

Lou
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always think that this is an interesting video, and demonstrates a difference in cornet sound between Richard Marshall and Roger Webster:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeJB1_GRCSk

All the best

Lou
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Stevenson wrote:
In the upper sections of the UK 'brass band movement' cornet sections are NOT more "trumpet-like",...in fact listening to classical and topical orchestral recording I do detect that things might just be moving in the opposite direction with orchestral trumpet sections displaying better flexibility and sound control than a couple of years ago....


Hi Bob

Thanks very much.

Take care

Lou
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Bach Strad 180ML/37
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Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
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Bach Strad 184ML
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p76
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread gets more interesting, and we are now delving into the changing history of brass bands I think.

Our rehearsal last night, looking at pieces for this years state championships - Old 100th (Sparke version), North Star (Rimmer), Laudate Dominum (Gregson), Little suite for Brass, Pirates of the Caribbean, Barnard Castle.

All require a different type of cornet playing. Perhaps players have indeed become more versatile - the instruments have helped us do that I think. We have in the Bandroom some very early cornets that the Band owned at the beginning of the 20th century. A couple are in pretty good condition, but the most interesting thing about playing them with their original mpcs. is how little the tone colour can be changed (which might have something to do with the nut on the end of the pipe of course )

Modern cornets are so much more flexible in how much you can work with the tone, and the choice of mpcs. is much wider.

I agree with the posts about different abilities required from different parts of the cornet section. Doesn't quite work that way in lower level band, as you have to work with what you have, but an astute Bandmaster uses the strengths of each player according to what is required. In our band that means sometimes players normally on 2nd might be playing solo in a show tune, or a hymn, if they are the person with the right natural tone or projection for that piece.

I think Bob is on the money again in his observation that cornet sections are moving back to being more 'cornety' again after perhaps swinging too far into the trumpet world.

What I have also found fascinating, being a member of a band that has had a big influx of 20-somethings in the last five years or so, is how the younger people, often with no history of brass banding, love to play the "traditional" repertoire of marches and hymns. And, in our part of the world anyway, how the public seem to prefer that stuff as well.

My 2c

Cheers,
Roger
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

p76 wrote:
This thread gets more interesting, and we are now delving into the changing history of brass bands I think.

Hi Roger

Yes, I agree.


Our rehearsal last night, looking at pieces for this years state championships - Old 100th (Sparke version), North Star (Rimmer), Laudate Dominum (Gregson), Little suite for Brass, Pirates of the Caribbean, Barnard Castle.

All require a different type of cornet playing. Perhaps players have indeed become more versatile - the instruments have helped us do that I think. We have in the Bandroom some very early cornets that the Band owned at the beginning of the 20th century. A couple are in pretty good condition, but the most interesting thing about playing them with their original mpcs. is how little the tone colour can be changed (which might have something to do with the nut on the end of the pipe of course )

Modern cornets are so much more flexible in how much you can work with the tone, and the choice of mpcs. is much wider.

Interesting, thanks.

I agree with the posts about different abilities required from different parts of the cornet section. Doesn't quite work that way in lower level band, as you have to work with what you have, but an astute Bandmaster uses the strengths of each player according to what is required. In our band that means sometimes players normally on 2nd might be playing solo in a show tune, or a hymn, if they are the person with the right natural tone or projection for that piece.

I think Bob is on the money again in his observation that cornet sections are moving back to being more 'cornety' again after perhaps swinging too far into the trumpet world.

What I have also found fascinating, being a member of a band that has had a big influx of 20-somethings in the last five years or so, is how the younger people, often with no history of brass banding, love to play the "traditional" repertoire of marches and hymns. And, in our part of the world anyway, how the public seem to prefer that stuff as well.

I think that hymns and marches are always popular.

My 2c

Which is really appreciated, thanks.

Cheers,
Roger

Take care

Lou

_________________
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Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
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Cornets:
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Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
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