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Flugelhorn metals & platings & finishes.



 
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:01 pm    Post subject: Flugelhorn metals & platings & finishes. Reply with quote

It's well established that for those interested in getting a softer, more diffuse sound, going with higher 90℅ copper content Rose brass helps. One very reliable THF user informed me about Mangione's all Copper Calluchio sounding very dark & smooth. This same user questioned the actual effectiveness of going with just a Rose brass bell.

What about silver nickel plating, or blackened nickel? (Smoked chrome. That looked awesome on my electric bass guitar's hardware). One appeal is that it seems potentially to hold up cosmetically, not the kind of lacguer wear you get with brass.

I read previously that nickel plated instruments exaggerate the existing qualities of a brass instrument. A diffuse sound becomes more diffuse, & a penetrating sound becomes even more penetrating. True? I wonder, cuz you don't see that many nickel plated flugelhorns.

Last dumb question. "Phospherous Rose Brass". Isn't that redundant? Doesn't the 10℅ zinc imply a phosphorous metal alloy by definition?
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in the '90s I called the Calicchio factory, got Chris on the phone, and tried to order a copper flugelhorn. He told me they were working on a batch of four copper flugels, all spoken for, after which he didn't want to make any more. When I asked why, he told me that they were great, "if you are Chuck Mangione, soloing in front of an orchestra, but otherwise they don't blend."

A few years later I managed to buy a used one, and I'd have to say Chris was wrong. It's not that is won't blend, it's that it blends to a fault. It's so dark and diffuse that it really only works in a solo or small-group setting. It gets lost in a big band section, and even on a solo (unless I have a mic to stuff up the bell) I have to play really loud to carry over a band (and don't blame the mouthpiece -- I'm using a Bach 3FL to cut the overwhelming darkness.

So my first observation would be, I pursued the ultimate in dark, diffuse flugelhorns and now I know why I shouldn't have.

My second observation would be that I once owned an unusual trumpet -- a "New York Trumpet Company Stage 1 Magnum Bb." Like this:

http://www.stonermusicinc.com/New%20York%20Trumpet%20Company%20Stage%201/slides/Stage%201Magnum%20Copper.html

The bell was solid electroformed copper. Sure, it didn't have a bell-wire, but you're obsessed about material, so based on what you've been told it must have been a super dark horn, right?

Nope, it was a well-balanced trumpet that I used as a lead horn for a while.

My third observation would be that the Calicchio Copper flugel has an extreme bell-flare (rivaling the Benge 5) and the copper is really soft. The NYTC Stage 1 Magnum had a fairly standard bell profile and the copper was quite hard (try Googling "hardness of electroformed copper").

My last observation would be that in recent years there's been an international arms race to build the darkest, smokiest flugelhorn possible, and cost doesn't seem to be an object. And yet none of the high-end builders are using nickel.
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
Back in the '90s I called the Calicchio factory, got Chris on the phone, and tried to order a copper flugelhorn. He told me they were working on a batch of four copper flugels, all spoken for, after which he didn't want to make any more. When I asked why, he told me that they were great, "if you are Chuck Mangione, soloing in front of an orchestra, but otherwise they don't blend."

A few years later I managed to buy a used one, and I'd have to say Chris was wrong. It's not that is won't blend, it's that it blends to a fault. It's so dark and diffuse that it really only works in a solo or small-group setting. It gets lost in a big band section, and even on a solo (unless I have a mic to stuff up the bell) I have to play really loud to carry over a band (and don't blame the mouthpiece -- I'm using a Bach 3FL to cut the overwhelming darkness.

So my first observation would be, I pursued the ultimate in dark, diffuse flugelhorns and now I know why I shouldn't have.

My second observation would be that I once owned an unusual trumpet -- a "New York Trumpet Company Stage 1 Magnum Bb." Like this:

http://www.stonermusicinc.com/New%20York%20Trumpet%20Company%20Stage%201/slides/Stage%201Magnum%20Copper.html

The bell was solid electroformed copper. Sure, it didn't have a bell-wire, but you're obsessed about material, so based on what you've been told it must have been a super dark horn, right?

Nope, it was a well-balanced trumpet that I used as a lead horn for a while.

My third observation would be that the Calicchio Copper flugel has an extreme bell-flare (rivaling the Benge 5) and the copper is really soft. The NYTC Stage 1 Magnum had a fairly standard bell profile and the copper was quite hard (try Googling "hardness of electroformed copper").

My last observation would be that in recent years there's been an international arms race to build the darkest, smokiest flugelhorn possible, and cost doesn't seem to be an object. And yet none of the high-end builders are using nickel.


When did Mangione dispense with his silver Yamaha & go with the Calicchio?. I bought a 1999 Chesky recording " The Feeling's Back" in which the flugelhorn sound was sensational, but the NY church acoustics & chesky:s sonic signatute seem ti contribute to the beautifully big warm sound. (As an audiophile & amateur speaker builder I've managed to wow guests with that particular recording. I just wish there were some extended improvised solos like back in the "Land of make believe" days .

What got me wondering about nickel is that I saw a used Kanstul 925 with a silver nickel plate for sale on eBay, but who says that's intended to compete with the darkest of the dark.

(As a comeback player I could be very happy with my brass .460" bore brass flugelhorn using a Wicks 4 FL. If only I could get back my range & endurance!)
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
Back in the '90s I called the Calicchio factory, got Chris on the phone, and tried to order a copper flugelhorn. He told me they were working on a batch of four copper flugels, all spoken for, after which he didn't want to make any more. When I asked why, he told me that they were great, "if you are Chuck Mangione, soloing in front of an orchestra, but otherwise they don't blend."

A few years later I managed to buy a used one, and I'd have to say Chris was wrong. It's not that is won't blend, it's that it blends to a fault. It's so dark and diffuse that it really only works in a solo or small-group setting. It gets lost in a big band section, and even on a solo (unless I have a mic to stuff up the bell) I have to play really loud to carry over a band (and don't blame the mouthpiece -- I'm using a Bach 3FL to cut the overwhelming darkness.

So my first observation would be, I pursued the ultimate in dark, diffuse flugelhorns and now I know why I shouldn't have.

My second observation would be that I once owned an unusual trumpet -- a "New York Trumpet Company Stage 1 Magnum Bb." Like this:

http://www.stonermusicinc.com/New%20York%20Trumpet%20Company%20Stage%201/slides/Stage%201Magnum%20Copper.html

The bell was solid electroformed copper. Sure, it didn't have a bell-wire, but you're obsessed about material, so based on what you've been told it must have been a super dark horn, right?

Nope, it was a well-balanced trumpet that I used as a lead horn for a while.

My third observation would be that the Calicchio Copper flugel has an extreme bell-flare (rivaling the Benge 5) and the copper is really soft. The NYTC Stage 1 Magnum had a fairly standard bell profile and the copper was quite hard (try Googling "hardness of electroformed copper").

My last observation would be that in recent years there's been an international arms race to build the darkest, smokiest flugelhorn possible, and cost doesn't seem to be an object. And yet none of the high-end builders are using nickel.


I remember when Chris (forgot his last name...Weilk maybe?) and his mom Irma were running the show in the 90s and early 2000s.

The flugels were interesting, and because of Chuck Mangione obviously had some buzz. But I went through a similar issue of getting one to try.

And finally Chris told me they kept destroying the bells during manufacturing and couldn't figure out why. He told me they lost three to four times the cost of every horn they produced and sold. Which weren't many.

Alas, I never ever got to try one. And I think Chris is working in real estate now, and has nothing to do with the business last we spoke (16 years ago maybe) but I wonder what Chuck Macaroni is playing these days?
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: Copper flugel bells Reply with quote

I can relay an interesting observation about your post concerning copper bells on flugels and Chuck Mangione. I believe Mangione used quite a shallow cup and enjoyed playing in the upper register which he did very well. For me, his sound was not as dark as you indicated. I use bells made with both yellow brass and copper on my Scodwell USA flugels and at a recent conference one of my flugelhorns that had been silver plated (made for a fellow in the Navy band) was displayed sitting next to a copper bell Kanstul. After the full five days of the conference I noticed that everybody that came by my table, nobody picked my horn up and immediately went for the copper bell Kanstul. That told me "eye candy" was a factor and I started making my flugel with copper bells in addition to my yellow brass models. After completing the first horn I had several really top players play both blind and guess what...they all thought the yellow brass model was darker. Like everything in the brass instrument world, balance is everything and playing the horns is the only true test.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Copper flugel bells Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:
I can relay an interesting observation about your post concerning copper bells on flugels and Chuck Mangione. I believe Mangione used quite a shallow cup and enjoyed playing in the upper register which he did very well. For me, his sound was not as dark as you indicated. I use bells made with both yellow brass and copper on my Scodwell USA flugels and at a recent conference one of my flugelhorns that had been silver plated (made for a fellow in the Navy band) was displayed sitting next to a copper bell Kanstul. After the full five days of the conference I noticed that everybody that came by my table, nobody picked my horn up and immediately went for the copper bell Kanstul. That told me "eye candy" was a factor and I started making my flugel with copper bells in addition to my yellow brass models. After completing the first horn I had several really top players play both blind and guess what...they all thought the yellow brass model was darker. Like everything in the brass instrument world, balance is everything and playing the horns is the only true test.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com


I find the same thing with Flip Oakes' Wild Thing flugelhorn. The copper bell sounds lighter (not brighter) to my ears. The only thing I would add is that a yellow brass bell that is finished in today's polyester/acrylic clear finish also sounds lighter to me than a silver plated brass bell. I would say that a yellow brass bell, regardless of finish, has a more solid sound to its core, compared to copper. Maybe that is what people refer to as "dark".
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bassguy wrote:
When did Mangione dispense with his silver Yamaha & go with the Calicchio?. I bought a 1999 Chesky recording " The Feeling's Back" in which the flugelhorn sound was sensational, but the NY church acoustics & chesky:s sonic signatute seem ti contribute to the beautifully big warm sound.


I probably talked to Chris Calicchio around 2004, so that data point doesn't help. I will say that the album cover for "The Feeling's Back" clearly shows a "straight through" valve block, which was never a feature of the Yamaha but is a feature of my Calicchio. The 2000 Mangione album "All For Love" shows a copper flugel that sure looks like my Calicchio.
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Copper flugel bells Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:
After completing the first horn I had several really top players play both blind and guess what...they all thought the yellow brass model was darker. Like everything in the brass instrument world, balance is everything and playing the horns is the only true test.


To the OP, this is the final word. You can't single out one single factor like bell material or finish and assume what the result will be.

Back when Chris Calicchio was making Calicchio horns he made brass flugels, red-brass flugels, and copper flugels. I have never played either the brass or red-brass flugels of that era, so I can't say anything about how they compare.

However, I remember that the brass and red-brass flugels had a 6" bell, whereas the copper flugel had a 6.5" bell -- which is another variable that precludes any meaningful comparison.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has all the appearance of a pseudo intellectual exercise and has limited value if it has any value at all.

I could speculate on the material used in the body of a car, the weight of the seats suspension and wiring, the responsiveness of the steering, the torque and the horsepower.

I could compare the predicted cornering abilities of different vehicles and the predicted acceleration and efficiency of the brakes allowing late braking.

After a couple of months analysis I might understand the characteristics of each vehicle and which is likely to get me to the finish line quicker.

Or I could sit in it for 5 minutes and find out the truth by driving it.

Blow a horn to discover its characteristics.
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 3:11 pm    Post subject: Discussion merits Reply with quote

From the stand point of selling my Scodwell USA flugelhorns, it is a relevant discussion when you're dealing with a multitude of players with pre-conceived notions. Your analogy with things automotive doesn't respond with me at all. My restorations over the years have included Fiat Abarth Zagatos, many Alfa Romeos, a couple of Ferarris, a Maserati Quatroporte and a BMW 2002Tii, none of which remotely reminded me of anything related to brass instruments. I would invite you to visit me at the upcoming ITG and "road test" the different materials I use in making my trumpets and flugelhorns.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

one thing that I am sure about is if I put a 5" or a 5-1/2"
jalapeņo pepper in my burrito it will burn going in AND burn coming out!
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:51 am    Post subject: Re: Copper flugel bells Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:
I can relay an interesting observation about your post concerning copper bells on flugels and Chuck Mangione. I believe Mangione used quite a shallow cup and enjoyed playing in the upper register which he did very well. For me, his sound was not as dark as you indicated.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com


Are you talking before or after he started using that all copper (not just the bell) Calicchio flugelhorn. Yeah, his old recordings using the Yamaha don't reveal a dark sound--although that high d in Feel so Good isn't nearly as trumpety as most would sound.

Sometime in the 90s he switched to an all copper Calicchio, that I have a recording of (circa 2000) by the Chesky brothers label titled "the Feeling's Back". The fact that he could get that warm & fluffy a sound with a shallow cup is impressive. (How shallow is that CM-1 of his? Shallower than a Curry FL-M?)

This is precisely the reason for my wanting to go from a. surprisingly good (in intonation) 460" bore yellow brass (rose brass tuning pipe) FH to an all rose brass .433 bore FH. Darker smoother sound, with a shallower mouthpiece. I don't know to what extent an all rose brass instrument would darken the sound, relative to an all copper FH or golden brass FH without trying them out. But I'm obsessing on the idea a bit.
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
Back in the '90s I called the Calicchio factory, got Chris on the phone, and tried to order a copper flugelhorn. He told me they were working on a batch of four copper flugels, all spoken for, after which he didn't want to make any more. When I asked why, he told me that they were great, "if you are Chuck Mangione, soloing in front of an orchestra, but otherwise they don't blend."

A few years later I managed to buy a used one, and I'd have to say Chris was wrong. It's not that is won't blend, it's that it blends to a fault. It's so dark and diffuse that it really only works in a solo or small-group setting. It gets lost in a big band section, and even on a solo (unless I have a mic to stuff up the bell) I have to play really loud to carry over a band (and don't blame the mouthpiece -- I'm using a Bach 3FL to cut the overwhelming darkness.

So my first observation would be, I pursued the ultimate in dark, diffuse flugelhorns and now I know why I shouldn't have.

My second observation would be that I once owned an unusual trumpet -- a "New York Trumpet Company Stage 1 Magnum Bb." Like this:

http://www.stonermusicinc.com/New%20York%20Trumpet%20Company%20Stage%201/slides/Stage%201Magnum%20Copper.html

The bell was solid electroformed copper. Sure, it didn't have a bell-wire, but you're obsessed about material, so based on what you've been told it must have been a super dark horn, right?

Nope, it was a well-balanced trumpet that I used as a lead horn for a while.

My third observation would be that the Calicchio Copper flugel has an extreme bell-flare (rivaling the Benge 5) and the copper is really soft. The NYTC Stage 1 Magnum had a fairly standard bell profile and the copper was quite hard (try Googling "hardness of electroformed copper").

My last observation would be that in recent years there's been an international arms race to build the darkest, smokiest flugelhorn possible, and cost doesn't seem to be an object. And yet none of the high-end builders are using nickel.


Kanstul makes some nickel plated flugelhorn, either the 925 or 1025. There's an internet article about brass metals & platings, & the claim about nickle plating is that it'll exaggerate whatever qualities the instrument has.

I suspect that rose brass won't be dramatically better than my existing yellow bass unstrumsnt
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