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Seeking advice on embouchure and endurance (with videos)


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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more point: you feel like "when you use more air your embouchure breaks down." The chromatic drills you do are from the Clarke book, intended to be played as softly as possible with a clear sound. This will help you get used to that 1.5C infinitely more than trying to "use more air."

That and Church hymns are notoriously taxing, so no worries
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just watched your vids you posted. Not sure how I missed that link earlier.

Dude...your chops look awesome. You have that frown shape I like to see, and your corners are drawn down, not stretched. You also have very thin lips when you play.

This would all make ME lean to playing on smaller hardware. Your sound is very good and mature in the vids, but very spread and opaque I think because of a very open Bach trumpet and HUGE mouthpiece.

You'd be amazed at how much everything comes together and gets more focused with a smaller rim size, shallower cup and tighter backbore.

Just by watching you play and looking at your chops, you have the promise to be a VERY powerful trumpeter. Just because of your natural set up. I hardly see any movement when you play and the basic set up is that of having a very strong sound and control.

I also like the fact that you don't over blow or tank up with more air than you need.

If you do those same exercises on a smaller mouthpiece, I can almost guarantee from my experience you'll have endurance and range improvements and a much easier time playing trumpet.
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JohnOlek
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
Breathing. Do you inhale through the center of your lips, disturbing everything and drying things out? Can't tell from the video.

"Lower lip dominant." What is the purpose? As an exercise, sometimes doing something un-natural has specific benefit but isn't intended to be incorporated into our daily playing.


First off, thank you for the warm welcome!

My breathing can depend on what I'm in the middle of. My initial breaths are usually with a pretty wide open mouth. If I only have a short amount of time to breathe between phrases, I'll usually breathe from the sides of my mouth. If I'm running on empty, don't really have a good place to breathe and just need to top off my lungs to make it to the end of a phrase, I'll take a breath through my nose, which I'm sure is not great.

For the lower lip dominant video, this goes back to my initial concern that I have a tendency to roll in my lower lip as I get higher in my range, and it feels like I don't have the embouchure support I need. This was my attempt to try to play in a style that included more lower lip along with the feeling of support I assumed I might need.

razeontherock wrote:

That and Church hymns are notoriously taxing, so no worries


Hah, thank you for that! Makes me feel better already.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many years ago I upsized all the way from a 7C, 3C, then to a 1.5C and after a concerted effort never could recover range and endurance so I backed off to the 3C and reasonable range an endurance returned. But on the 3C I really missed the tone I got on the 1.5C. So I have the 3C rim threaded onto the 1.5C underpart and I have been reasonably happy ever since.

The only passing comment I see with your approach is that your embouchure appears to be relatively static, that it doesn't move much as you transition from low to high. While I don't recommend a lot of movement, IMO there has to be some. With no perceptible movement there's always a risk that you're using pressure instead. This is something I did in my youth that really jacked me up.

Here are a couple of videos of arguably the greatest living trumpet player whose embouchure somewhat resembles yours.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLZWfxVHz9E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KctLeYS7BRg
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
Robert P wrote:
My first seat-of-the-pants reaction was that your placement is high. Is that the way you've always played? What happens if you try bringing the mouthpiece down to a placement closer to 50/50?


That could simply be the way his embouchure plays best, it doesn't look particularly abnormal to me (a non-expert).

...

Again I'm no expert on this stuff (and if you are, sorry for questioning and I look forward to the explanation as to why I'm wrong, I always appreciate the opportunity to learn ), but it appears to be working consistently within a known pattern? That alone would make me very cautious about advising anyone to change it, especially over the internet - if my suspicions pointed in that direction I'd be wanting to get the advice of people who know this stuff more than I do.

Just throwing a suggestion out for consideration. OP isn't happy with how his setup has been working. I hear sluggishness in his flexibility, I sense he's swimming upstream and wondering if his placement is an impediment.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
TKSop wrote:
Robert P wrote:
My first seat-of-the-pants reaction was that your placement is high. Is that the way you've always played? What happens if you try bringing the mouthpiece down to a placement closer to 50/50?


That could simply be the way his embouchure plays best, it doesn't look particularly abnormal to me (a non-expert).

...

Again I'm no expert on this stuff (and if you are, sorry for questioning and I look forward to the explanation as to why I'm wrong, I always appreciate the opportunity to learn ), but it appears to be working consistently within a known pattern? That alone would make me very cautious about advising anyone to change it, especially over the internet - if my suspicions pointed in that direction I'd be wanting to get the advice of people who know this stuff more than I do.

Just throwing a suggestion out for consideration. OP isn't happy with how his setup has been working. I hear sluggishness in his flexibility, I sense he's swimming upstream and wondering if his placement is an impediment.


I think his set up looks AWESOME. He looks like some of my favorite lead trumpeters!! Brian Macdonald, Roger Ingram to name a few. And his lack of motion (or over motion for that matter) while playing and transitioning through registers is a GOOD thing in my opinion.

He's a young guy, obviously trying and asking all the right questions and is with a teacher. The struggles could just be from being a young player...but...BUT I say again, experiment with a smaller rim diameter and maybe a shallower cup and see how much easier things can be. A Bach 1.5 C is a HUGE piece and a lot of work with out a lot of return. Why work so hard.

There is no machismo regarding mouthpiece size....so many great players have said "play the smallest mouthpiece you are physically able play while still getting a great sound and flexibility" this whole mantra about playing huge hardware just baffles me.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnOlek wrote:
razeontherock wrote:
Breathing. Do you inhale through the center of your lips, disturbing everything and drying things out? Can't tell from the video.

"Lower lip dominant." What is the purpose? As an exercise, sometimes doing something un-natural has specific benefit but isn't intended to be incorporated into our daily playing.


First off, thank you for the warm welcome!

My breathing can depend on what I'm in the middle of. My initial breaths are usually with a pretty wide open mouth. If I only have a short amount of time to breathe between phrases, I'll usually breathe from the sides of my mouth. If I'm running on empty, don't really have a good place to breathe and just need to top off my lungs to make it to the end of a phrase, I'll take a breath through my nose, which I'm sure is not great.

For the lower lip dominant video, this goes back to my initial concern that I have a tendency to roll in my lower lip as I get higher in my range, and it feels like I don't have the embouchure support I need. This was my attempt to try to play in a style that included more lower lip along with the feeling of support I assumed I might need.

razeontherock wrote:

That and Church hymns are notoriously taxing, so no worries


Hah, thank you for that! Makes me feel better already.


I have way too much experience with the specific pitfalls you mention here. I cannot stress enough how important it is to co-operate with how your chops are naturally functioning now, instead of chasing after some different perceived ideal that may never work for you.

Your lower lip seems to visually 'disappear' as you ascend? It's supposed to! For you as a IIIA, (and me) not someone else. The solution is not what teachers had me do, try to become someone else. Your tongue will help stabilise both your lower lip, and jaw! Nearly took me 40 years to find out.

Tongue moves not only up to ascend, but forward. Lower lip naturally moves back. At some point, the two MUST meet! And yes the tongue becomes strong enough to help hold the jaw forward 'enough' for the extreme of your upper register.

Less chop movement is better. Yours is minimal now. Learn play what you can now with less tension, and you'll be able to do more.

I took a lesson from Stan Mark in 1977, when he was playing lead for Maynard. The only thing he could help me with was to breathe through my nose so as not to disturb mpc placement.(This too came straight from Reinhardt) Stan didn't charge me for the lesson.

Two things you are doing RIGHT! Don't change them. It took me many years to develop the ability to "execute proper mouth corner inhalations," as Doc termed it. This requires more mpc pressure while breathing, which is so counter-intuitive as to give me fits. Hopefully you aren't as spastic as I am, lol. "Set, place, inhale;" words to live by. Prevents a lot of problems from ever starting.
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Arjuna
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Curry recommendation is for Curry's ability to do Bach right. Curry's interpretation of Bach is very musical.
The Curry 3C dot was suggested since it is based on a Mt Vernon Bach 3C and it is closer to what you are playing but has a more efficient cup and a better rim profile.
When the equipment is right the balance with player to mouthpiece to trumpet should be obvious where it feels like you can play anything your ability allows and relatively easy.
Consider going to nose breathing it works for Sergei Nakariakov and it may work for you.




JohnOlek wrote:


Arjuna wrote:

From watching and hearing you play I would like to suggest trying a few mouthpieces. The Curry 3C dot and a Curry 10 1/2C both mouthpieces are very efficient.


Any specific reason for the Curry recommendation? I'm not opposed to trying new mouthpieces but I don't know much about the differences between manufacturers and how Curry might compare to Bach mouthpieces.

My teacher's opinion, which I tend to agree with, is that there will likely always be more important things to focus on than mouthpieces, and it can be an endless journey to keep trying new things instead of just sticking with something and working more on fundamental skills.

I also have a Bach 3C in my case, which my teacher recommended I try. I used it for a few days and wasn't able to get anywhere close to the same quality of sound I can get from my 1.5C, so I'm probably just going to stick with the 1.5C for now.

She suggested that maybe after a few more lessons we could have a lesson in a music store where I could try out a bunch of mouthpieces and she would tell me which ones seem to work best for me. I really like that idea.
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JohnOlek
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arjuna wrote:
The Curry recommendation is for Curry's ability to do Bach right. Curry's interpretation of Bach is very musical.
The Curry 3C dot was suggested since it is based on a Mt Vernon Bach 3C and it is closer to what you are playing but has a more efficient cup and a better rim profile.
When the equipment is right the balance with player to mouthpiece to trumpet should be obvious where it feels like you can play anything your ability allows and relatively easy.
Consider going to nose breathing it works for Sergei Nakariakov and it may work for you.


I've recently switched back to my Bach 3C and actually have noticed it's a lot easier than the 1.5C, so it seems likely that I've been playing on equipment that's unnecessarily big for me. My 3C is actually in really bad shape and is even a tiny bit dented, so I decided to take the plunge and order a Curry 3C dot.

I've struggled to find any truly negative reviews of the Curry and most people seem to have really good results, so here's hoping it'll work out well for me too! I should be getting mine mid next week and will report back. Maybe I'll even post some new videos.

razeontherock wrote:

I have way too much experience with the specific pitfalls you mention here. I cannot stress enough how important it is to co-operate with how your chops are naturally functioning now, instead of chasing after some different perceived ideal that may never work for you.

Your lower lip seems to visually 'disappear' as you ascend? It's supposed to! For you as a IIIA, (and me) not someone else.


Thanks for this advice. Following my body's lead on how it knows how to play makes a lot of intuitive sense.

Can you tell me a little bit more about IIIA? I'm not familiar with that terminology or what other implications go along with being a IIIA.

Benge.nut wrote:

There is no machismo regarding mouthpiece size....so many great players have said "play the smallest mouthpiece you are physically able play while still getting a great sound and flexibility" this whole mantra about playing huge hardware just baffles me.


Ever since I first started, I've always had this subconscious understanding equating bigger mouthpieces with better players. It seemed like it was just the natural progression based on what I was seeing with other students and hearing from my band director. I of course know that's not true, so thank you for the reminder.

cheiden wrote:

The only passing comment I see with your approach is that your embouchure appears to be relatively static, that it doesn't move much as you transition from low to high. While I don't recommend a lot of movement, IMO there has to be some. With no perceptible movement there's always a risk that you're using pressure instead. This is something I did in my youth that really jacked me up.

Here are a couple of videos of arguably the greatest living trumpet player whose embouchure somewhat resembles yours.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLZWfxVHz9E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KctLeYS7BRg


I played with a ton of pressure when I very first started in 6th and 7th grade, but braces forced me to completely change that. I don't feel like I play with much pressure at all now, but I'll try to concentrate on it to be sure.

I think it's also important to remind myself that it's okay for the embouchure to move a little bit between ranges. I think I do have a tendency to believe my embouchure should stay the same, which doesn't really make any sense.

Working on even the first exercises in the Colin book makes me play a big range of notes in the same breath, and I do notice my embouchure shifting to accommodate, so I think those exercises might end up being really good for working on this in addition to everything else they're good for.

Those videos were fantastic, by the way -- thank you so much for sharing!
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some great advice here, and refreshingly it isn't just "use more air" advice!!

You practice too loud. Most of what I saw would be much more beneficial if done at a very small dynamic and on smaller gear - the gear thing is my opinion.

Experiment with the order of your practice, for me I do a warmup which ends with lip trills then some low register chromatic, after which I work on wide interval slurs. During your warmup, which should be very similar day to day, you should get a feel for what may or may not be working well. I always spend time on that which doesn't work, and soft. I do slurs in my warmup, and if I'm not quite right they are what often needs most attention, and what brings the best reward.

I really like the Frank Minear routine. I do that daily after my warmup.

Rest often, like really often.

Start work on pp octave slurs.

There's some really good teachers about, and people will see me reference them in my posts. These are guys I have had lessons with, and as such no diss to lots of other well reputed tutors.

Rich Willey, Chris LaBarbera, Roger Ingram, Bryan Davis.

Any of those 4 will be worth their lesson fee several times over!!

Best,
Mike
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock's comment about "IIIA" was a reference to a Reinhardt embouchure classification (if you look down the boards, you'll find a board dedicated to Reinhardt's​ pedagogy).

In itself, this means very little - other than that way you're playing now appears to fit a pattern of traits...
Unless you're studying with a Reinhardt teacher, that doesn't get you anywhere in particular, other schools don't use these classifications - if you did choose to study​ with a Reinhardt teacher, they would they test to confirm you should be playing that way and apply the late Dr's teachings to lead you down the path of your type, how they generally develop best and attempt to avoid common pitfalls of that type.



There are lots of different approaches taken by different schools​ of trumpet pedagogy and not all of them are entirely compatible with each other, or with every student - plenty overlaps, plenty doesn't, many of these schools boast professionals as students.

If you want my opinion, if your current teacher is helping you attain good progress/results and you have developed a trust in them, then continue as you are - a good teacher (as best we can tell) is worth their weight in gold regardless of which school they teach... If they're consistent with themselves and tailor their approach to you, rather than trying to contort you to fit a clear preferred mould (and you see progress with them) that's a teacher​ worth having whether they make a big deal of being a Claude Gordon student, Callet student, Reinhardt student or whatever else.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bach_again wrote:
Some great advice here, and refreshingly it isn't just "use more air" advice!!

You practice too loud. Most of what I saw would be much more beneficial if done at a very small dynamic and on smaller gear - the gear thing is my opinion.

Experiment with the order of your practice, for me I do a warmup which ends with lip trills then some low register chromatic, after which I work on wide interval slurs. During your warmup, which should be very similar day to day, you should get a feel for what may or may not be working well. I always spend time on that which doesn't work, and soft. I do slurs in my warmup, and if I'm not quite right they are what often needs most attention, and what brings the best reward.

I really like the Frank Minear routine. I do that daily after my warmup.

Rest often, like really often.

Start work on pp octave slurs.

There's some really good teachers about, and people will see me reference them in my posts. These are guys I have had lessons with, and as such no diss to lots of other well reputed tutors.

Rich Willey, Chris LaBarbera, Roger Ingram, Bryan Davis.

Any of those 4 will be worth their lesson fee several times over!!

Best,
Mike


Haha nice double Ds on your Stamp vid. Gotta love them big ol' double Ds!!!!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,

That PDF you posted does have a lot of good exercises that are taken from well-known method books and technical studies books. But not one word is mentioned in it regarding learning to build up air power and even more importantly, learning to control the air power with the arching tongue. Note that by this I do NOT mean just using "more air"!

And the directions to tongue with the tongue tip striking "behind the top teeth", while giving the average way that most (average) players tongue, certainly do not describe the best way to tongue (what some call "Dorsal Tonguing" and what my teacher Claude Gordon called "K-Tongue Modified Tonguing"), keeping the tongue tip resting lightly behind the bottom front teeth and articulating with the front-middle portion of the tongue coming into contact with the area just behind the top front teeth (keeping the tongue tip down and out of the way of the air stream which is especially critical for playing into the upper register with ease and accuracy).

I heard you play on your videos - you don't sound bad, and your embouchure looks fine. You just need to develop the coordination and strength required to reach the higher notes. By coordination I mean mainly learning how to arch your tongue as you ascend, and by strength I mean mainly the development of extraordinary levels of power in the muscles of expiration (air power). It takes a doubling of supplied air pressure to climb each octave on a brass instrument at a given volume level. Most players if they are using tongue arch correctly can reach around a D or E above High C. To develop range beyond that requires strengthening of the blowing muscles, and there are exercises to do that.

I can help you if you want the help (but it's not free).

From http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43878&:

Screamindemon wrote:
A few months ago I took a crash course with Mr. Mohan. It was an absolutely wonderful experience. I had no idea what to expect from the Gordon method.
For anybody else out there interested in taking lessons from Mr. Mohan all i can say is that it is a must. He is perhaps one of the most knowledgable trumpet players/teachers that I have ever had the pleasure of studying with. My only problem is that my active duty Military career keeps me from being able to study with him on a continuous basis.
I am currently deployed in Iraq with the 101st Airborne Division Band. Practice time is not exactly at a premium due to all of the othere duties I have, even though i am a bandsmen. With out a doubt my Gordon routine is the only thing saving my chops.
I have to play taps for an upcoming Memorial service, and would not be able to do it with a decent sound otherwise.
The only other thing that I would like to add is that I learned more from Mr. Mohan in a period of nine hours (spread out over a couple of weeks) than I had in the past thirteen years of my playing. Hopefuly this little bit of feed back helps. Oh yeah and my range jumped way up just in our first lesson. I guess that is just a bi product of correct playing.

thanx
Harry Rogers


The above was posted in 2005. With the availability of Skype and good webcams now, I no longer do Crash Courses for my out of town students - we just get together every two to four weeks for Skype Lessons.

Cheers,

John Mohan
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John: (O.P. John) as TKsop stated, all the details of what"IIIA" means aren't that important right now. It's enough to know that your embouchure looks fine, and it does tend to produce some pretty good lead players, as others have pointed out.

The main thing is to keep practicing, intelligently! Keep improving, and it'll keep being fun! Hopefully your current teacher helps you with that, and I haven't seen anything in this thread that should hurt you; just good stuff that may come in handy sometime.
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