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snichols
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Posts: 586
Location: Virginia

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:21 am Post subject:

Benge.nut wrote:

chapahi wrote:

It's only because sizes like 1C and 3C were rare during the Mt. Vernon era. Killer Mt. Vernon 10 1/2 C's in good shape are 10 dollars on ebay usually.

Then, if you play on a shallower cup, or smaller inside diameter...."those are cheater pieces...try playing that gig on a Bach 1C like me"

There's some weird machismo mindset with these classical players, that they've been brainwashed to think that they MUST have a Bach 1....there are like 20 more different rim sizes Bach made!!!

But have at em guys!! And good luck!!!!

I'm not sure who you have the misfortune of playing with, but I haven't come across anyone that plays a large mouthpiece for these reasons, or that has that viewpoint about smaller mouthpieces. For me (and I will presume most others), I play on a 1C because I'm pursuing a particular sound. Over the last decade I've played (in roughly this order) Bach 3C, Monette B6, Bach 1.5C, Monette B2, Bach 3B, Curry 1.5BC, and Curry 1C, all in the pursuit of trying to get a certain sound and playing characteristic that can help me win a job in the classical world. While I haven't won anything yet, I feel like my sound on the 1C is closer to my goal than the other pieces along my journey.

If I weren't trying to fit into the very homogenized sound of American orchestral trumpeters then I probably wouldn't play something so big. If I were doing freelance full time, church gigs, playing jazz, etc. and I felt that I had the freedom to "have my own sound", I would probably be playing on something closer to the Monette B6 (3C size).

And I haven't heard people sneer at smaller mouthpieces for years, since I was in high school, so I'm sorry that you've had to deal with that. That's stupid and I don't think representative of the majority of classical or "big" mouthpiece players.

Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:52 am Post subject:

snichols wrote:

Benge.nut wrote:

chapahi wrote:

It's only because sizes like 1C and 3C were rare during the Mt. Vernon era. Killer Mt. Vernon 10 1/2 C's in good shape are 10 dollars on ebay usually.

So...a Bach 1C = a certain sound and playing characteristic that no other rim size can obtain?

Especially with the inconsistency of Bach mouthpieces over the years...line up three 1Cs and they ALL are different. So which one of those three different 1Cs has the correct sound and playing characteristic you're looking for....if they are all different??

See my point? And we're talking about thousandths of an inch sometimes between sizes. And ONLY a 1C can get the sound or characteristics you need?

I've said it before, if you had a Bach 10 but buffed out the 0 and didn't tell anybody and showed up to work and played on it....I'd bet all the money I have NOBODY in the section, least of all the conductor would notice...or care.

And decades ago there wasn't this mantra that the right "sound and playing characteristics " can only come from one size rim and cup shape. Guys back then in major orchestras were playing mouthpieces with sizes ranging all over the whole spectrum.

It's just fascinating how things change.

snichols
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Posts: 586
Location: Virginia

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:30 am Post subject:

Benge.nut wrote:

snichols wrote:

Benge.nut wrote:

chapahi wrote:

It's only because sizes like 1C and 3C were rare during the Mt. Vernon era. Killer Mt. Vernon 10 1/2 C's in good shape are 10 dollars on ebay usually.

You're absolutely right... Things have changed. Fifty years ago the spectrum of sounds for orchestral trumpeters that a conductor would hire was much more diverse. These days, it's much more homogenized. And nobody is saying that the "only" mouthpiece that can get the desired sound is a 1C. Or at the very least I didn't say that. I can't speak for the people you chat with at gigs. I think I explained pretty clearly that after playing on numerous pieces of various sizes, the 1C is what has gotten me closest to the sound I'm looking for. Could I get the same sound on a 1.5C or even a 3C? Yes, probably. But factoring in everything else like response, flexibility, etc. the 1C is the closest I've gotten to the providing the whole package. The consistency issue is irrelevant because (a) I'm talking about the specific pieces I've played and how they've responded for me (I'm not saying that every 1C will work for me), and (b) I'm on a Curry 1C, and Currys are pretty consistent. Is it possible I'll ultimately land on something different down the road as my playing progresses? Yes, of course; maybe bigger, maybe smaller. It's also not just about what the audience can discern. If a really good player played both pieces back to back, the audience may not be able to tell the difference between a Bach 10.5C and a 1C, but the player may actually have to work harder on the 10.5 to get the desired sound. If I were playing Mahler and needed a big sound, why would I use a smaller mouthpiece when that would probably be more work, not less.

I suppose I'm also confused as to how you don't give the best players in the top orchestras more credit... You really think that the 95% (made up number, yes) of top orchestral trumpeters in the country who play a 1.5 rim or bigger chose their mouthpiece based off "tradition" or "machismo"? Those guys play what works, because it's the right tool for the job. Just like how you play lead charts on a smaller mouthpiece, they play classical music on a bigger piece. You talk about the classical cats being snooty about small mouthpieces, but it seems like your doing the same thing back at them, saying that they are delusional, misinformed, or are choosing their mouthpieces for the wrong reasons.

Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:12 am Post subject:

95% of guys in the orchestra business are playing something around a Bach 1C....that's my point. It's just astonishing to me. In the commercial side of things where I play more, I know guys playing any and every rim size from a Bach 1-20 and there are examples of all of those guys sounding great. Same in the jazz world, soloists and bebop guys playing anything and everything. But in the classical world 1C or you're the odd man out. Most of those players are teachers. And so the mantra goes. And THATS why I think so many players and students play such big hardware. Just a vicious cycle.

John Mohan
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:46 am Post subject:

Benge.nut wrote:

So...a Bach 1C = a certain sound and playing characteristic that no other rim size can obtain?

Do you think that the sound created by a particular size and shape mouthpiece can be easily mimicked playing on a radically different size and shape mouthpiece?

Benge.nut wrote:

Especially with the inconsistency of Bach mouthpieces over the years...line up three 1Cs and they ALL are different.

But not that different. Line up any 1C with any 3C and I think you'll see a lot more difference.

Personally, when I was a sub with the Radio Symphony Orchestra Berlin when I lived in Germany, I got the sound that was correct for the work with a copy of a Bach Mt Vernon 1 (now called the Bach 1X). It just sounded so big and beautiful. Later, I moved to a Bach 1X rim with a Bach 1B underpart with #22 Throat and #24 Symphonic Backbore. In recent times I am getting that sound with a mouthpiece Jim Kanstul made me, combining a copy of the rim of Arturo Sandoval's MV3C (larger than a modern 3C) with a Bach 3B cup, with #22 throat and #24 Symphonic backbore. This mouthpiece is just a bit smaller in diameter than the 1X/1B but actually a little deeper.

I've never been able to get the big, rich, orchestral type sound with smaller mouthpieces. YMMV.

Cheers,

John Mohan
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Last edited by John Mohan on Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:01 am; edited 2 times in total

rockford
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 2477
Location: Northern VA

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:52 am Post subject:

I suspect the best players know what they need to do their jobs. _________________ Bill Siegfried NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.

Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:55 am Post subject:

John Mohan wrote:

Benge.nut wrote:

So...a Bach 1C = a certain sound and playing characteristic that no other rim size can obtain?

Do you think that the sound created by a particular size and shape mouthpiece can be easily mimicked playing on a radically different size and shape mouthpiece?

Benge.nut wrote:

Especially with the inconsistency of Bach mouthpieces over the years...line up three 1Cs and they ALL are different.

But not that different. Line up any 1C with any 3C and I think you'll see a lot more difference.

Personally, when I was a sub with the Radio Symphony Orchestra Berlin when I lived in Germany, I got the sound that was correct for the work with a Bach 1X rim / Bach 1B underpart with #22 Throat and #24 Symphonic Backbore. It just sounds so big and beautiful. In recent times I am getting that sound with a mouthpiece Jim Kanstul made me, combining a copy of the rim of Arturo Sandoval's MV3C with a Bach 3B cup, with #22 throat and #24 Symphonic backbore. This mouthpiece is just a bit smaller in diameter than the 1X/1B but actually a little deeper.

I've never been able to get the big, rich, orchestral type sound with smaller mouthpieces. YMMV.

Cheers,

John Mohan

Well...you play on big hardware to start with. You've said you play 3Cs of sorts. And diameter wise...they are pretty close to a 1C diameter. So moving to a deeper cup, really isn't that big of a deal.

The CG school seems to play on big stuff with wide open throats so comparing a player from that school to others who play closer to a 10 Bach and having them move to a 1 is a much bigger deal.

My point as I've stated is I wonder why the scene has changed so much from a few decades ago, when orchestral guys played rim sizes ranging all over the spectrum to now as stated by another poster 95% of the guys playing a variation of Bach 1s

That's all...no biggie. Just an interesting topic for me.

I feel the same way when I see guys struggling in schools on a Bach 5C or 3C when I KNOW they'd benefit from something smaller...but their teachers always say, "as you get stronger move to bigger stuff" and "bigger is better" because "look at all the orchestra players using 1Cs ".....when this is a new phenomenon

But, no offense or it's not muppets biz what anybody chooses to play on. I just think it's silly that guys think they can only get the appropriate sound and playing characteristics out of a Bach 1C

Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:57 am Post subject:

rockford wrote:

I suspect the best players know what they need to do their jobs.

And 95% of them all need the same thing?? Okayyyyy

John Mohan
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:03 am Post subject:

Benge.nut wrote:

rockford wrote:

I suspect the best players know what they need to do their jobs.

And 95% of them all need the same thing?? Okayyyyy

It certainly makes sense to me that mouthpieces of a certain size and shape will yield a certain type of tonality for most players.

Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:06 am Post subject:

John Mohan wrote:

Benge.nut wrote:

rockford wrote:

I suspect the best players know what they need to do their jobs.

And 95% of them all need the same thing?? Okayyyyy

It certainly makes sense to me that mouthpieces of a certain size and shape will yield a certain type of tonality for most players.

Agreed. But don't you find it interesting say in the 50s and 60s and earlier not only was it rare to see orchestra players using 1Cs, but players also used such a wide variety of different things?

And now the selection is so streamlined to achieve said "tonality". Make ME wonder why that is. And I think there is voodoo involved in thinking that you won't win a chair, or get hired, or a conductor really knows one way or the other if you are playing a Bach 1C or a 7C

John Mohan
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:06 am Post subject:

Benge.nut wrote:

John Mohan wrote:

Benge.nut wrote:

So...a Bach 1C = a certain sound and playing characteristic that no other rim size can obtain?

Do you think that the sound created by a particular size and shape mouthpiece can be easily mimicked playing on a radically different size and shape mouthpiece?

Benge.nut wrote:

Especially with the inconsistency of Bach mouthpieces over the years...line up three 1Cs and they ALL are different.

But not that different. Line up any 1C with any 3C and I think you'll see a lot more difference.

Personally, when I was a sub with the Radio Symphony Orchestra Berlin when I lived in Germany, I got the sound that was correct for the work with a Bach 1X rim / Bach 1B underpart with #22 Throat and #24 Symphonic Backbore. It just sounds so big and beautiful. In recent times I am getting that sound with a mouthpiece Jim Kanstul made me, combining a copy of the rim of Arturo Sandoval's MV3C with a Bach 3B cup, with #22 throat and #24 Symphonic backbore. This mouthpiece is just a bit smaller in diameter than the 1X/1B but actually a little deeper.

I've never been able to get the big, rich, orchestral type sound with smaller mouthpieces. YMMV.

Cheers,

John Mohan

For heavy commercial playing I play on Reeves 43C and 43M mouthpieces - both smaller and shallower than even modern Bach 3C mouthpieces, let alone the larger Mt Vernon.

Also, note that I'm not saying everyone should play a 1C in orchestras (I don't). There seems to be a size range that is common, varying from the 1-1/4C to the 1B in most orchestras. And there are exceptions to this.

Lastly, note that I edited my post which you quoted to more accurately reflect what mouthpieces I played when (I realized after my initial post that I made a mistake - I didn't go to the 1X/1B combo until after I moved back to the States from Germany).

Cheers,

John

John Mohan
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:48 am Post subject:

Benge.nut wrote:

John Mohan wrote:

Benge.nut wrote:

rockford wrote:

I suspect the best players know what they need to do their jobs.

And 95% of them all need the same thing?? Okayyyyy

It certainly makes sense to me that mouthpieces of a certain size and shape will yield a certain type of tonality for most players.

Agreed. But don't you find it interesting say in the 50s and 60s and earlier not only was it rare to see orchestra players using 1Cs, but players also used such a wide variety of different things?

I think what happened is the sound that was in fashion went in the direction it did being led by Herseth and the CSO section and also by some of the other great players of the time (Frank Kaderabek with the Philadelphia Orchestra; Armando Ghitalla with the BSO and others). And to get that sound, players chose similar equipment to what the leaders of the trend were using (Herseth and also Cichowicz and later Phil Smith a 1C rim 1B cup combination, Kaderabek a 1C and Ghitalla 1-1/4C sized rims with various cup depths).

In the earlier years, there were more variances in the sounds and style of the trumpet (and brass) sections. Through the 50's and 60's the CSO led a change that was followed by others. And as the sound unified, the equipment needed to create that sound also unified.

In recent times, I think the "CSO sound and style" is starting to fall off from favor. The way Herseth played (balls to the wall with tons of emotions and the taking of chances) is being phased out by what one might refer to as cookie cutter players. The up and coming students from the current "Trumpet Studios" of major music schools are being bred to play picture perfect excerpts with 100% consistency, but devoid in my opinion of emotion. And the big CSO/Herseth sound is not necessarily a requirement now to get a job. And not coincidentally, we are starting to see more of a range of mouthpiece sizes today.

Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:01 am Post subject:

Thanks John. Those are all good reasonings and makes sense. And I'm in total agreement about "cookie cutter" players. Getting closer and closer to robots performing. Sky-Net is almost here!!!

Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:05 am Post subject:

Benge.nut wrote:

Thanks John. Those are all good reasonings and makes sense.

And I'm in total agreement about "cookie cutter" players. Getting closer and closer to robots performing.

Sky-Net is almost here!!!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6fctULDctuA

Soon......

Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:59 am Post subject:

Sky-Net won't be all bad. I bet some of the Termanators will be fun...like this one https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zuhVvWJd4c8

John Mohan
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:54 pm Post subject:

I like this one better. https://youtu.be/Is6nA2kvMGE?t=41s

JoseLindE4
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 791

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:55 pm Post subject:

If the vast majority of aspiring orchestral players play on large equipment, then the vast majority of successful orchestral players will likely play on large equipment. That doesn't mean that it's the appropriate size for the vast majority of aspiring orchestral players. The way we talk about mouthpiece sizes in orchestras reminds me a little of this.

rockford
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 2477
Location: Northern VA

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:23 pm Post subject:

Benge.nut wrote:

John Mohan wrote:

Benge.nut wrote:

rockford wrote:

I suspect the best players know what they need to do their jobs.

And 95% of them all need the same thing?? Okayyyyy

It certainly makes sense to me that mouthpieces of a certain size and shape will yield a certain type of tonality for most players.

My take on equipment is that back in the 30's-40's most, if not all symphony orchestras were part time jobs and most of the players played all sorts of gigs from theaters to live radio and shows. They needed all around equipment that could do it all on a daily basis, but might not be optimum for any specific gig. As orchestras became full time jobs and grew in size, players could specialize and seek out the equipment that helped them do their specific job better. I doubt that orchestral music directors or audition panels care about their trumpet player's specific equipment but I do know they care about results. While someone might be able to produce a great orchestral sound on a 7C it seems clear that the vast majority of today's top orchestral players gravitate towards the larger sizes. Players aspiring to working in that arena should pay attention to the trends and see how it relates to their results.
_________________
Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.

JVL
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 894
Location: Nissa, France

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 3:39 am Post subject:

ID is very individual and so is not a factor for sound. Cup shape, depth, throat size, backbore shape and size are. In other words, the right ID allows you to play easily. If you want such or such sound, colour, etc, you must better modify parameters concerning cup, throat, bb, like said above

Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 4:44 am Post subject:

JVL wrote:

ID is very individual and so is not a factor for sound. Cup shape, depth, throat size, backbore shape and size are.
In other words, the right ID allows you to play easily. If you want such or such sound, colour, etc, you must better modify parameters concerning cup, throat, bb, like said above

Totally agree, 100%

Cup shape and depth, throat, backbore, entrance to the throat, have the biggest effect on sound, and rim diameter size has the least to do with the equation.

Yet, as posted and mentioned and observed....90%+ of all orchestral players I've observed are all on rim sizes around a Bach 1.....I just think that is so odd given the consensus that rim size is very personal, and has minimal effect on sound.

Another theory I have about this regards pitch and sound. Orchestral folks seem to be after that "dark Teutonic, warm, powerful sound" and okay..I get that. But I think bigger rims and throats lead players to play low on the pitch, often just plain flat on the pitch. And I think that sound is misconceived with dark or warm, when in all actuality they are playing flat.

I'm not saying this is the case with players in major orchestras/pros but I've observed this with college players, and semi-pros in different playing situations. I look over and think to myself..."DUDE!!! Push in!!!"

That "dark warm teutonic open" sound....is lifeless and dead when it's below pitch.

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