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danny45635 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Feb 2015 Posts: 508
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:11 pm Post subject: lip swelling mystery possibly solved |
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So over the last few months, I've had a problem with my upper lip swelling, and I could not seem to figure out why it happens; even when I don't play a lot it's still swells up. Before I go to school everyday, I practice for about 20-30 minutes, and my lips feel great almost always. But after lunch when I go to band, my lip is swollen when I haven't done any playing. At first I thought "maybe something in my morning warm up is causing this", and since taking lessons with very many reputable trumpet players, I have learned how to warm up efficiently and without hurting myself. Despite this my lip would swell, and I wouldn't know why, cause I wasn't doing any kind of forceful playing whatsoever. Strangely on weekends, I can play for hours on end without any issue, which confused me when I would play for little to no time at all and have lip swelling.
I was doing some research yesterday, and I read that certain foods may cause an allergic reaction of some sort or also acidic foods can cause lip swelling. Even though it makes a lot of sense, it never even thought it could be the issue. I thought about what I eat, and the dressing I have on my salad every day at school (balsamic vinegar) is very acidic. And today, I didn't have the dressing, and my lip is fine. Of course I'll get light swelling from heavy rehearsals, but this was constant despite how light I would make my playing days. Just wanted to put this out there if anyone else had a similar problem. I never considered my lip could be swelling due to lunch.
I typed this on my phone so sorry if there are any errors. _________________ 1965 Bach 37, Bach 236 D, Bach Artisan C, Schilke P5-4 |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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It's a very interesting point - diet does make a difference.
Spicy food before playing isn't ideal either... nor is taking in too much caffeine or not enough water, etc.
To say nothing of alcohol and tobacco...
I think you'd have to be pretty dedicated to tailor your diet entirely to your playing, but it's worth bearing in mind certainly. |
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danny45635 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Feb 2015 Posts: 508
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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TKSop wrote: | It's a very interesting point - diet does make a difference.
Spicy food before playing isn't ideal either... nor is taking in too much caffeine or not enough water, etc.
To say nothing of alcohol and tobacco...
I think you'd have to be pretty dedicated to tailor your diet entirely to your playing, but it's worth bearing in mind certainly. |
Since I suppose it's just the dressing on the salad, it's not a big deal to change my diet lol. I was surprised by how much of a difference in my playing having no swelling made. My upper register, tone, and endurance were all cut down a significantly from the swelling, so it's great to be able to play the way I want to again. _________________ 1965 Bach 37, Bach 236 D, Bach Artisan C, Schilke P5-4 |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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danny45635 wrote: | TKSop wrote: | It's a very interesting point - diet does make a difference.
Spicy food before playing isn't ideal either... nor is taking in too much caffeine or not enough water, etc.
To say nothing of alcohol and tobacco...
I think you'd have to be pretty dedicated to tailor your diet entirely to your playing, but it's worth bearing in mind certainly. |
Since I suppose it's just the dressing on the salad, it's not a big deal to change my diet lol. I was surprised by how much of a difference in my playing having no swelling made. My upper register, tone, and endurance were all cut down a significantly from the swelling, so it's great to be able to play the way I want to again. |
Absolutely - I wasn't too clear, sorry, I meant changing one or two particularly troublesome things seems sane and sensible... but I doubt anyone takes it to the extremes of refusing to consume things they like purely for playing reasons? |
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1jazzyalex Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jun 2016 Posts: 569 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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It could also be an interaction between acidic food like vinegar, and the metal in your mouthpiece, which I'm assuming is silver plated but may have other trace metals in the silver ... you could try a gold-plated mouthpiece which doesn't cost that much more. _________________ Yamaha 8335LA with Blessing 3C, 5C, Schilke 11A4A |
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danny45635 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Feb 2015 Posts: 508
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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1jazzyalex wrote: | It could also be an interaction between acidic food like vinegar, and the metal in your mouthpiece, which I'm assuming is silver plated but may have other trace metals in the silver ... you could try a gold-plated mouthpiece which doesn't cost that much more. |
I use a gold plated Bach 3C, but thank you for the suggestion. _________________ 1965 Bach 37, Bach 236 D, Bach Artisan C, Schilke P5-4 |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Danny,
I had for years this kind of problem, nobody helped me with it, til i started to study nutrition,sciences etc, and found the right doctor
A lot of food and wines have NATURALLY present some sulfites. But what is problematic are the sulfites added in most food and wines, and other conservators etc.
Most of the balsamic vinegars have sulfites, and conservators such as E151c that causes a lot of problems in some people (and anyway in long term to everybody), among those, lip swelling.
So avoid it, prefer organic food without all these additives.
Good luck ! |
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danny45635 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Feb 2015 Posts: 508
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 2:12 am Post subject: |
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JVL wrote: | Hello Danny,
I had for years this kind of problem, nobody helped me with it, til i started to study nutrition,sciences etc, and found the right doctor
A lot of food and wines have NATURALLY present some sulfites. But what is problematic are the sulfites added in most food and wines, and other conservators etc.
Most of the balsamic vinegars have sulfites, and conservators such as E151c that causes a lot of problems in some people (and anyway in long term to everybody), among those, lip swelling.
So avoid it, prefer organic food without all these additives.
Good luck ! |
Thanks for the info! _________________ 1965 Bach 37, Bach 236 D, Bach Artisan C, Schilke P5-4 |
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PhxHorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 Posts: 2190 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Put the mouthpiece pressure on your lower lip. That will solve a majority of the swelling problem. Don't eat salty foods right before playing. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Just posted the following in your recent "Brass Poisoning" thread, and figure it might be good info for some people who might miss the other thread:
John Mohan wrote: | I doubt you suffered from brass poisoning, which is very rare and normally involves the inhalation of zinc oxide vapors causing irritation to the respiratory tract.
I just looked for and found your original topic thread lip swelling mystery possibly solved. I'm sorry I didn't see it sooner. I'm fairly certain you were (are?) suffering from a food allergy.
I've had a similar thing happen three times in the past, but with more dramatic results. The first time, it was when I was playing on Disney's "Der Glöckner von Notre Dame" (Hunchback) in Berlin for the final two years of it's three year world premiere run there. The show played at the Musical Theater am Potsdamer Platz, a huge theater built specifically for the show.
You can't see it due to the angle but the theater had a very tall (at least 7 stories) complex at the rear of the building including dressing rooms, dance rehearsal halls, a 7th floor orchestra rehearsal room big enough to house a full orchestra, and on I think the 5th floor (it's been awhile) there is a full service commissary for the actors, musicians and crew.
As was my custom, before a show I ate my lunch (two show day) in the commissary - on this particular day I had a very nice German Sausage, Bratkartoffeln (fried potatoes with bacon and onions) and a bottle of vitamin/fruit juice (popular in Germany and similar to what we got as kids in Kindergarten here in the States in the 1960's).
About 15 minutes before showtime I headed down toward the orchestra pit. As I rode down in the elevator I felt a strange tingling in my upper lip. When I pulled my trumpet out I found I could not even play a single note! It was clear my lip had swollen in some sort of allergic reaction. With nothing I could do about it I took my place in my chair. As the orchestra did our tuning notes (A for the strings then Bb Concert for the wind players), I tried to, but couldn't even play the middle C. All of a sudden, Heiko Lippmann (the assistant MD who was conducting that day) looked at me in horror and frantically waved at me to leave the Pit. I left the Pit, entering the "Orchestergraben", the room below and behind the Pit where we kept our cases and personal stuff and warmed up. There was a little mirror in the corner. I looked in the mirror and Oh My God!, I looked like the Beast from Beauty and the Beast! Not only were my lips and cheeks swollen up, but I had two huge swollen areas on my forehead above each eye!!!
I headed up to the personnel office to tell them to call a sub, and as I headed there I started feeling tightness in my throat and difficulty with breathing. As I walked into the manager's office he took one look at me and immediately dialed the German equivalent of 911 (112). I went down to the stage door to wait for the Notarzt (paramedics) to arrive. It was comical to see their ambulance pull up along the street behind the theater and not notice the long entrance way to the stage door area (it was normally a sidewalk but had those pillars in the cement that could go down to let vehicle traffic through). They drove slowly back and forth several times on the street before figuring it out. By the time they arrived at the stage door I was already feeling better.
They gave me Benadryl and told me I had suffered a food allergy, probably to the fat or oils in the sausage. I went home and slept for about 14 hours and was good to go for both shows on Sunday.
They were probably right about it being fat or oils from the meat, because the next time it happened several years later I was on a road trip across the U.S. I had a Whopper at Burger King for lunch and then got back out on the road. Within minutes I started noticing the old familiar tingling in my lip, and got off at the next exit with services, bought Benadryl and took two capsules. That took care of it nicely, except making it very difficult to stay awake while driving! (Yes, should have just pulled over and dozed but I was anxious to see my kids).
The third and most recent time was about ten years ago. My youngest son and daughter were visiting from Montana and we had a dinner at the Rainforest Cafe restaurant in Chicago. I had their amazing Barbecued Ribs - and along came the tingling and swelling. It was pretty serious this time and as we quickly paid the bill and headed for a nearby Walgreens I felt my throat tighten. As I sat near the drug counter at the Walgreens after taking Benadryl but still having breathing troubles, I was worried enough to literally be praying to God not to have me die in front of my two young children. As I said my prayer, I noticed the sound of music - it was my 11 year old son singing the Oompa Loompa song (my face had become quite colorful).
Anyway, in your original post you wrote that your lip always swells after you eat lunch. It seems clear to me that you're eating something you are allergic to. You should see a doctor and have him prescribe you an EpiPen (I have one now, though it is past the date of expiration). These allergies can get worse over time and unless you can figure out what you are specifically allergic to, it's kind of like a ticking time-bomb. You should at least carry a couple of Benadryl capsules with you (and if you need them, don't bite them, but swallow them whole because if you chew them your saliva will neutralize them).
And try varying and recording what you eat for lunch keeping track of when your lip does and does not swell. Maybe you can narrow down what's causing the reaction.
I'll post this as a quote in your original thread, too, since it might be of help to others who miss this thread.
Cheers,
John Mohan |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Just had a thought: It's possible you do have a metal allergy, but not from the mouthpiece but rather from the relatively cheap flatware (knives, forks and spoons) provided by your school's cafeteria. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2595
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Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:08 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | Just had a thought: It's possible you do have a metal allergy, but not from the mouthpiece but rather from the relatively cheap flatware (knives, forks and spoons) provided by your school's cafeteria. |
Don't schools these days use plastic? All the schools around here do. Plastic utensils and styrofoam plates. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2595
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Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:30 am Post subject: |
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PhxHorn wrote: | Put the mouthpiece pressure on your lower lip. That will solve a majority of the swelling problem. Don't eat salty foods right before playing. |
Trying to arbitrarily alter pressure on one lip will cause a can't play problem. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2662 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: |
As I sat near the drug counter at the Walgreens after taking Benadryl but still having breathing troubles, I was worried
<snip>
You should see a doctor and have him prescribe you an EpiPen (I have one now, though it is past the date of expiration).
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Ah John - can you do us all a favour and get a replacement epipen? NOW. From your description it is clear that our reaction is getting worse - from can't play due to swelling, to breathing difficulty. Breathing difficulty is a medical emergency and should have you calling 911 (or whatever is the local version, ours is 000) as a single epipen may not be enough to keep you going. You may need another, or even more.
Without wanting to send alarmist, a young colleague of mine has severe food allergies and needed 3 pipes during the wait and 10 minute transport to his local hospital. He was in a critical condition for a few days, with it now known if he would survive. He did, is fine and playing up a storm, but is even more careful of his foods now. That lat bout was due to a single cracker he ate... on school excursions we have to now carry them, even if no kids are known to be anaphylactic.
We need you to keep reminding us about Claude Gordon here, John!
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:23 am Post subject: |
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We must all eat food in their natural form, that we eat raw or cook ourselves, with only natural things such as olive oil, natural sea salt, pepper, integral sugar, etc. organic most of the time, and not these food full with sh.t additives and toxics.
Of course, this natural food can, in certain circumstances induce allergy. If so, take care of your guts.
Otherwise, our body, with the years, start to be full of toxic garbage. It can LOOK ok for some time, but at one moment, the "glass" is full and the blood carries only poison to all the organs.
There's enough poison in the air, the water, etc. that we can't avoid, not to keep on filling the body with rubbish.
Emergency is emergency, but there are mid & long term measures, and life hygien to adopt (number of meals a day, enough time between these to digest.. ) It'll be good for your trumpet playing, your career, but mostly your life. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Andy Del wrote: | John Mohan wrote: |
As I sat near the drug counter at the Walgreens after taking Benadryl but still having breathing troubles, I was worried
<snip>
You should see a doctor and have him prescribe you an EpiPen (I have one now, though it is past the date of expiration).
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Ah John - can you do us all a favour and get a replacement epipen? NOW. From your description it is clear that our reaction is getting worse - from can't play due to swelling, to breathing difficulty. Breathing difficulty is a medical emergency and should have you calling 911 (or whatever is the local version, ours is 000) as a single epipen may not be enough to keep you going. You may need another, or even more.
Without wanting to send alarmist, a young colleague of mine has severe food allergies and needed 3 pipes during the wait and 10 minute transport to his local hospital. He was in a critical condition for a few days, with it now known if he would survive. He did, is fine and playing up a storm, but is even more careful of his foods now. That lat bout was due to a single cracker he ate... on school excursions we have to now carry them, even if no kids are known to be anaphylactic.
We need you to keep reminding us about Claude Gordon here, John!
cheers
Andy |
Thank you for your care and concern Andy!
I'm waiting for the price on EpiPens to come back down to reasonable levels.
Quote: | Generic drugmaker Mylan obtained the rights to sell EpiPen in 2007. Since then, Mylan has increased the list price from $94 to $609, researchers report in JAMA Internal Medicine. |
Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-epipen-costs-idUSKBN16Y24O
Sounds terribly foolish of me, I know. But I just can't bring myself to support such a ripoff. Though my old one is past date of expiration, it has never been exposed to temp extremes and I'm pretty certain it's still potent. Plus, it has now been ten years since I had an allergic rxn, so I'm not too worried.
[Political content deleted. - Moderators]
My name is John and I am a cheapskate. |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9348 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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I have a very rare condition called Gleich's Syndrome. I used to have severe periodic swelling, mostly in my face and lips (but sometimes feet or hands), and after a few trips to the emergency room, went to an allergist. After a battery of tests, his diagnosis was this syndrome. Although I would take a Zyrtec when the symptoms first began to appear (recommended by my regular doctor at the time), it didn't seem to help much. The swelling would be mostly gone after about 24 hours with or without the Zyrtec. The allergist prescribed Singulair, saying that it worked as a different type of inhibitor, and it did the trick. Now when I feel the first tingle of swelling, I take a Singulair and the swelling subsides in about 15 minutes, never progressing enough for anyone to even notice.
Before the Singulair, you can imagine the fear of accepting gigs and wondering if I would have an episode on the gig. Luckily, it only happened once, but within about 30 minutes, I couldn't play a note. I used to have an episode about the same time every month, but sometimes it would skip a month. Now with the Singulair, it seems to be even less frequent. This syndrome appeared out of the blue about 15 years ago, and I'm hoping it will go away just as mysteriously as it came. At least now, it doesn't disrupt my life any more. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Things appear, and disappear...A name for each symptom or syndrom...ok.
Now, which treatment? efficient and healthy treatment?
Talking about food, during the 30', 1 million of tons of pesticides have been spread on the whole earth.
In 2000, 4 milliards of tons...
If we add the new material for cloths, nanoparticuls, drugs etc., that are now everywhere, in every single thing or place, our only possible fight must be about the choices we make daily.
Science and conscience. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:21 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: |
[Political content deleted. - Moderators] |
Okay, I'll rewrite what I wrote without mentioning anything about any federal level programs or acts:
I also didn't want to pay the exorbitant current price for an EpiPen because I'd be paying out of pocket since I canceled my health insurance after it doubled in cost in 2014, and then tripled in cost in 2016 compared to what it was in 2013. |
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