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Cornet "gap" again



 
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:05 am    Post subject: Cornet "gap" again Reply with quote

This raises it's head again: Wick 2 cornet mouthpiece in Prestige Cornet very hard to control, very wide slots and difficult upper register. Wrapped a small bit of PTFE tape round the end so it sits about 3mm further out and it is much more precise and solid to a top F. If it were a trumpet this would make sense because there is a gap between the mouthpiece and leadpipe, but this cornet doesn't have a gap. I am guessing that by sitting out further the air is being funnelled through the taper at the end of the receiver and that is adding some resistance. The A on first ledger line is also a lot closer to being in tune with this configuration. The Alliance mouthpieces all sit slightly further out like that which is what made me try it. Interesting and might be worth trying with other mouthpieces if you had this problem.
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the tape wrapped, the transition from the end of shank into the leadpipe has acquired a gap - albeit, not along but across the leadpipe. Perhaps this gap functions similarly as demonstrated by your experience.
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could be, although the Alliance mouthpieces behave similarly and have a similar insertion depth. Would be interesting to build a cornet with a gap and see how it responded.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had similar issues with my old cornet, nad tried literally dozens of mouthpieces, but I'm the top of the stave it was squirrels, and quite uncontrollable.

I discovered the solution, just down the way from you, at Phil Parker. A Schilke cornet.

Much Mir alsatisfying than fighting anything Wick or Besson...

Cheers

Andy
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Besson plays fine with other mouthpieces. Just been trying to work out why it doesn't with this one and I seem to have found the answer by examining them.
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just found that my Olds Ambassador cornet (early 1970-s) doesn't have a gap. The MP receiver apparently has a step on the inside where it connects to the lead pipe and the result is a gap-less lead-pipe.
Where does all the gap science go in this case?
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaxoTrump wrote:
I just found that my Olds Ambassador cornet (early 1970-s) doesn't have a gap. The MP receiver apparently has a step on the inside where it connects to the lead pipe and the result is a gap-less lead-pipe.
Where does all the gap science go in this case?


It still has a similar effect - I'm not sure I can explain why exactly other than to say that even blind I can tell.

If you look at Matt Frost's site, he sells cornet backbores with screw-sleeves - I have a couple (and all 5 standard sleeves) and the differences between each sleeve is noticeable.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its wrong thinking

Gaps do not exist

I know this is illogical but stop thinking in terms of a gap and all becomes clear.

In a trumpet the end of the leadpipe forms a step and the end of the mouthpiece forms another step. Only when the mouthpiece butts up against the leadpipe do the steps disappear.

The position of the steps is critical and affects intonation by affecting the nodal position in the airway.

This is why a trumpet is gap sensitive, by adjusting this gap and therefore the positions of the two steps in the airway you adjust the intonation.

Now consider a cornet, There is no leadpipe end to form a gap with the mouthpiece, but intonation issues still exist. The reason is simple, the mouthpiece has an end and that interferes with the nodal position exactly as it does in a trumpet.

You dont need a gap to interfere with a node, you just need a step, and the mouthpiece neatly provides that.

And this is why your solution worked, you adjusted the position of the step in the airway.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be clear, most *cornets like French horns, *trombones, euphoniums and tubas do not have a step down at the beginning of the mouthpipe/leadpipe, yet the amount a mouthpiece shank engagement still effects slotting. Just because there's no visible step, there is still a beginning or "venturi" where the small end of the taper starts. The distance from the end of a mouthpiece and the beginning of the taper is critical in providing what we like to call positive resistance. Take into account that just past the venturi the bore expands rather quickly which is why too much engagement of the mouthpiece will cause pitch center to spread, while less engagement increases slot.

*Examples of leadpipes/mouthpipes having a step down venturi include Bach 184 (shepherds crook) cornets, modern King 2B and 3B trombones.

Much like telescoping a SLR camera lens, you'll find there's a sweet spot where optimum focus can be found.

I hope this is helpful.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

A cornet which has an actual gap is the Bach 184.

I have experimented quite a bit with gap on cornets, and in my experience, altering the insertion amount on a cornet without an actual gap, has an equivalent (but possibly slightly lesser) effect to altering the insertion amount on a trumpet which has an actual gap.

Regarding GordonH's Denis Wick 2 mouthpiece, I have a feeling that he has an older one, and that the older ones used to insert further. Are Besson cornets still supplied with Alliance mouthpieces? I have a feeling that the Alliance mouthpieces and newer Denis Wick mouthpieces insert similarly, and that the new Prestige was designed to be played with the Alliance/current Denis Wick mouthpieces, which insert less far. If so, this would probably explain why using tape to decrease the insertion amount to that of an Alliance cornet mouthpiece, results in all the improvements which GordonH mentions.

I have a feeling that the current Denis Wick 2 has a flatter rim contour than the older ones, or I'd suggest trying a modern Denis Wick 2.

All the best

Lou
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
To be clear, most *cornets like French horns, *trombones, euphoniums and tubas do not have a step down at the beginning of the mouthpipe/leadpipe, yet the amount a mouthpiece shank engagement still effects slotting. Just because there's no visible step, there is still a beginning or "venturi" where the small end of the taper starts. The distance from the end of a mouthpiece and the beginning of the taper is critical in providing what we like to call positive resistance. Take into account that just past the venturi the bore expands rather quickly which is why too much engagement of the mouthpiece will cause pitch center to spread, while less engagement increases slot.

*Examples of leadpipes/mouthpipes having a step down venturi include Bach 184 (shepherds crook) cornets, modern King 2B and 3B trombones.

Much like telescoping a SLR camera lens, you'll find there's a sweet spot where optimum focus can be found.

I hope this is helpful.


Is there an incidence where the end of the mouthpiece does not match the pipe and there is space around it? In other words the taper of the shank is greater than the receiver. And if this is so, what does that do to the sound waves? I have no expertise in this area, so please forgive me if this makes no sense. Thanks.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an aside...

If you're after a slightly more lasting bodge than plumbers tape, I've found adhesive backed copper tape works just fine and will last quite a while.
Not a permanent fix but can be useful short-term
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dmamazon
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That must be the case...the older Wick 2 definitely has a smaller shank. Gordon knows this already...it's in one of his blog posts!
I have both an older, a newer, and a Heritage Wick 2. The older one works good with my POS Sovereign. The newer Wick 2 and Heritage work terrible!

Funny thing is I have a Heritage 2B with the smaller font and it works great with the Sovereign.

That being said, I also have Alliance RM1, RM1a, and RM3a and they all work great..yet SUPER DARK..with the Sovereign! I would say that to the player's ear the Alliance sound too too dark....yet if you listen to yourself in a recording they sound very very good! Like Gordon said..they(even though they are the Richard Marshall versions) do sit a tad further out. I can't wait to try them on a Prestige:)

I haven't upgraded yet to the Prestige...I'm only waiting for them to be available to my local music store(where I get a huge discount). I'm still playing the amazingly terrible Lottery Era Besson Sovereign:) The music store claims that Prestige's are made to order...I know that's not true. Anyway, If anyone knows of a GOOD used prestige for sale let me know:)
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With a horn with no venturi ledge - if you try to apply the GR formula
http://www.grmouthpieces.com/gap.html

you in effect zero out part of the formula since the difference between the venture and the ID of the receiver at the narrowest point = zero. Your appropriate "gap" distance from the end of the mouthpiece to the narrowest point of your receiver-venturi should then be determined only by the thickness of the end of your mouthpiece shank.

When comparing different mouthpieces, you would need to consider not only the gap but the wall thickness of the end of the mouthpiece.
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another interesting thing about the GR formula is the mouthpiece end thickness is multiplied by 5 and the receiver/venturi distance by only 1.5. In other words, its the mouthpiece end thickness that is dominating.

For me I use plumbers tape on every mouthpiece/horn combination and "season to taste" - adjust until the best trade-off is achieved. This is on both cornets and trumpets.
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