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New 2-piece valve casing 72 Bach trumpet?


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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 7:23 am    Post subject: New 2-piece valve casing 72 Bach trumpet? Reply with quote

Hello,

I was checking these newer Bach models and all the Bb 190 series trumpets feature a two-piece valve casing. The 19037 has a 37 bell, the Artisan has a 37(ish?) bell and the 19043B has a 43 bell with a 5" diameter.

But there is no model 19072 (a two-piece valve casing 72 bell Bach trumpet).
I wonder why...

Do you know if Bach will launch that model anytime soon?

Thanks!
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately the Build-A-Bach webpage does not allow bell model changes (only alloy) on the AB190, as they do the standard 180 models.

http://www.build-a-bach.com/Product?productName=Trumpet

Perhaps that will change in the future.
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James Becker
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it seems Bach just lunched the 190S43 Stradivarius Bb model.

Adding it to the 190S37 model, it seems like the 190S72 could be a good candidate for 2018.
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rockford
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

abundrefo wrote:
Well, it seems Bach just lunched the 190S43 Stradivarius Bb model.

Adding it to the 190S37 model, it seems like the 190S72 could be a good candidate for 2018.
I checked with Conn Selmer and was informed there are no plans to add the 72 bell to the 190 series. There is just
not enough demand to justify producing another variation of the 72.
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Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rockford wrote:
abundrefo wrote:
Well, it seems Bach just lunched the 190S43 Stradivarius Bb model.

Adding it to the 190S37 model, it seems like the 190S72 could be a good candidate for 2018.
I checked with Conn Selmer and was informed there are no plans to add the 72 bell to the 190 series. There is just
not enough demand to justify producing another variation of the 72.


That's truly unfortunate as it would likely be the only way I would likely be interested in a 190 series Strad. I remember when I bought my current C trying several of both the Bb and C 190 series instruments at a music store that had a huge selection on hand, and being unimpressed at the time. Perhaps I should retry them again. Finding a store like that one (unfortunately now closed) is the challenge.

Historically, they can certainly justify the 43 as many instruments from the Mt. Vernon era and prior are reported to have been made with 43 bells. But it sure does limit the potential for a large bore trumpet with a large bell when the (IMHO) best sounding Bach bell flare isn't available for order on this horn.

All my best wishes,

AL
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TheBrassBandMajor
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your best bet to get something like a Bach 190s72 (If they were release one out) is an Early Elkhart Vinabona 72 MLV.
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:11 am    Post subject: Re: New 2-piece valve casing 72 Bach trumpet? Reply with quote

abundrefo wrote:
Hello,

I was checking these newer Bach models and all the Bb 190 series trumpets feature a two-piece valve casing. The 19037 has a 37 bell, the Artisan has a 37(ish?) bell and the 19043B has a 43 bell with a 5" diameter.

Just to complete the list, the other current 190 trumpet is the Bach Commercial Trumpet, the LT1901B.

Mike
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Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
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Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW the Commercial LT1901B model has much lighter than standard LT brass slide receivers and nickel inner slide tubes. All other 190 series models have traditional standard weight brass inner slides and nickel slide receivers.

A good friend of mine plays a 1970's standard weight 180 fitted with a LT bell and LOVES it. So you'll never know if you like mixing and matching of components until you try it.

If you're serious about putting this together we'd be happy to accommodate your wishes, just be prepared to pay the going rate.

I hope this is helpful.
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James Becker
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Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US


Last edited by James Becker on Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to your previous experience regarding new Bach models, do you know when the 190S43 will be available to try in good number of stores?
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, my focus is service not sales so you'll want to ask your local Bach dealer when these might be available.

We've swapped the bell on a Commercial LT1901B model with a 43* for one of our local Bach endorsing artists, and he was quite happy with the results.
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
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www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the Bach Webpage:

Quote:
Using construction techniques from 1965, we combined the highest quality USA made materials, traditional hand-crafted processes, and vintage design elements to create a new model that has an amazing response and flexibility, a larger tonal core, superb resonance, and easy performance in all registers – all wrapped in the signature Bach sound!


Translation: We're now offering a Bach Strad of the same high quality as the standard early Elkhart Bach Strad, and charging a premium for it over and above what we charge you for the comparatively inferior standard Bach Strad of today.

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rockford
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
From the Bach Webpage:

Quote:
Using construction techniques from 1965, we combined the highest quality USA made materials, traditional hand-crafted processes, and vintage design elements to create a new model that has an amazing response and flexibility, a larger tonal core, superb resonance, and easy performance in all registers – all wrapped in the signature Bach sound!


Translation: We're now offering a Bach Strad of the same high quality as the standard early Elkhart Bach Strad, and charging a premium for it over and above what we charge you for the comparatively inferior standard Bach Strad of today.

It may seem that way, but Bach is responding to a demand expressed by customers ready to plunk down cash for what they want. Many of the changes over the years were based on cost savings, such as the one piece valve casing. Some people still notice a difference and are willing to pay for the two piece and it's extra manufacturing steps. Does it really make much of a difference? Apparently it does to some paying customers. Bach has done a pretty good job of recreating older models and responds when there is enough interest from those willing to pay for it. My own comment is that, here on TH and other online forums, we have a lot of folks that have cool ideas on what Bach should or should not do. While a lot of the ideas have artistic merit there is no evidence that creating this cool stuff will translate to actual sales.
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Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bill,

It doesn't just seem that way, it is that way.

Let me further clarify my point. In 1975 my family paid $500 for a new silver plated 180S37 Bach Strad for me, complete with the more desirable two piece valve cluster of that time period (this was not full retail price, but the typical discount price at a local music store - and not the more severely discounted price such as what we have today from the huge internet stores).

According to the CPI Calculator, $500 in 1975 is worth $2256 today. And yet the most discounted price of a new Bach 180S37 trumpet (with the cheaper one-piece valve cluster among other cost-saving measures) I can find today is on Amazon for $2698 (and I'm a little suspicious of that listing) while all the other highly discounted prices at wwbw, Sam Ash, etc. are all at $2829. So in terms of real dollars, Bach is selling the modern day standard (meaning sub-standard compared to the 1975 horns) for significantly more money then they what they asked for the higher quality horns they made forty years ago.

And now, they are offering (due to popular demand as you point out) horns that they themselves claim are comparable to the horns of yesteryear and better than the horns they've been making lately, and they're charging even more for them than the already overpriced 180S37 horns.

In my opinion, the new 190S37 should be available with a real world price of $2256 and the substandard, one-piece valve cluster / built with cost saving measures, modern 180S37 should be going for hundreds less than that.

To Bach's credit, I'm sure at least a portion of the reason for the decreased value to price ratio is due to Union demands, costs of liability insurance, vastly increased costs of providing health insurance to employees at today's ridiculous rates, and the vastly increased compensation received by corporate executives compared to 40 or 50 years ago. But really, even all that is superfluous. The CPI Calculator takes all that into account by definition. If you run the costs of most products and services (and salaries) through the Calculator you'll find that for the most part, most prices reflect accurately what the CPI Calculator says they should be. There are exceptions, automobiles being one of them, but in that case, we can't really compare the quality or technology of a modern sedan with ABS, Traction Control, GPS, 280+ hp, 0-60 in 6 seconds and 26 mpg to what was offered in 1965. Heck, a new car runs so clean I don't think one can't even off themselves in a garage with one! (But please don't try and test my claim). By and large, everything from Rolex watches to Levis Jeans has changed in price right along at the rate the CPI Calculator would predict, including Schilke Trumpets. But not Bach Trumpets.

I'm a lead trumpet player, I'm stubborn as hell and I'm sticking to my opinion.

Cheers,

John

P.S. Sorry this is so long!
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, Conn-Selmer did their best to bust up the Union, so the greater portion of profits are likely going to top management and stock holders.

Here's a brief synopsis of the Bach plant strike starting over 10 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conn-Selmer

The employees at the Vincent Bach facility in Elkhart, Indiana represented by United Auto Workers Local 364, struck on April 1, 2006, and as of July 30, 2009, the union was decertified. Out of 230 workers that went out on strike approximately 70 returned with the remaining workers having been subject to recall until July 30, 2010.

Not to get too political, but are you a Union musician? Just curious....
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James Becker
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77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
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Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
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rockford
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, We share a lot of the same opinions and I often share them with Jeff C. who's in charge of marketing and is involved in product development. The airline I work for as a pilot is represented by the Teamsters so I'm pretty familiar with Union/employee issues. I have a lot of opinions about that too. 😎 Anyway, my thought is we are living in a very different world than existed in the 70's. I was born in 1960. Today, Bach produces more trumpets in one typical day than Vincent Bach produced all month. Between employment costs, environmental compliance, heating and cooling, rising materials cost (environment) government reporting requirements, among others all companies are dealing with many more levels of expense than existed in the 70's. While it's popular to blame corporations and CEO's for all the ills of the business world it takes pretty smart people to run a major corporation with all the roadblocks government places in the way. This isn't the place for specific politics so I'll stop here. Different era different rules.
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Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Folks much wiser can decipher the implications of the 2013 leveraged buy out of Steinway (Conn-Selmer) on the future of Bach.

It was explained to me in very simple terms that a leveraged buy out is the equivalent of selling your home to a buyer, but you get to pay the buyer's mortgage.

Leveraged buy outs haven't worked out so well for Guitar Center http://www.marketwatch.com/story/guitar-center-bonds-slide-to-record-lows-on-concerns-about-companys-debt-burden-2017-04-25

More about LBOs found here http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/leveragedbuyout.asp
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
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www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
According to the CPI Calculator, $500 in 1975 is worth $2256 today....

To Bach's credit, I'm sure at least a portion of the reason for the decreased value to price ratio is due to ....

I'm a lead trumpet player, I'm stubborn as hell and I'm sticking to my opinion.

John brings up some great points, and interesting reasons for the value-to-price changes of Bach trumpets. But I suspect you'll find the same value-to-price changes with other brands. Anyone know the street price for a Schilke B5 in 1975?

My only disagreement with John is that I'm a jazz trumpet player. I suppose John's reply would suggest that I'm less stubborn. But I think my wife would disagree.

Mike
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Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
John, Conn-Selmer did their best to bust up the Union, so the greater portion of profits are likely going to top management and stock holders.

Bach and Union had different views about controlling costs and increasing quality. The Union had a right to strike. Bach had a right to oppose the strike. The suggestion that Bach wanted to bust up the Union or put more profits in the hands of top management seems to be speculation.

Mike
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Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the risk of having my post pulled, please read this article and tell the rest of us why you think the purchase price of Bach trumpets is due to the cost of the labor to build them. How many of you could survive a cut in pay from $24.50 to $17.00 per hour?

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/33347074/ns/us_news-the_elkhart_project/t/elkhart-union-workers-are-left-broken/#.WTcgNdQrKt8

As of the writing of this article all student model Bach brass manufacturing has been moved to the Eastlake, OH plant. So with the elimination of Selmer USA saxophones and Bach student brass, the Elkhart plant can focus exclusively on manufacturing Stradivarius professional brass instruments.
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
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www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
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rockford
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
At the risk of having my post pulled, please read this article and tell the rest of us why you think the purchase price of Bach trumpets is due to the cost of the labor to build them. How many of you could survive a cut in pay from $24.50 to $17.00 per hour?

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/33347074/ns/us_news-the_elkhart_project/t/elkhart-union-workers-are-left-broken/#.WTcgNdQrKt8

As of the writing of this article all student model Bach brass manufacturing has been moved to the Eastlake, OH plant. So with the elimination of Selmer USA saxophones and Bach student brass, the Elkhart plant can focus exclusively on manufacturing Stradivarius professional brass instruments.
This article lays out the facts well as I understand them. Without pay cuts the days of manufacturing student/intermediate level instruments at Conn-Selmer were coming to a close. My personal take is that the Union and many of the workers didn't seem to get that.
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Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.
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