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TrpPro
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Location: Riverview, FL
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 Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:57 pm Post subject: Schilke 6A4A |
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| Looking for pros and cons on the 6A4A. Never tried one until recently but I'm finding it to be quite a mouthpiece. |
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Schilke 6A4A |
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| TrpPro wrote: | | Looking for pros and cons on the 6A4A. Never tried one until recently but I'm finding it to be quite a mouthpiece. |
This piece and its various incarnations was among the most common scream piece in usage back in the day.
Recommendation: have the throat and back bore professionally altered to assist at getting a bigger sound. If I were to use this piece right out of the box? Oh you'd hear me alright. Along with enough edge in the tone to cut through all the fog in London.
The standard throat on the 6a4s is way too tight for most players to get a full tone on. I would suggest nothing less restrictive thsn a number 24. And I personally could use a #16 without screwing it up.
According to stats available on the Net many many distinguished lead players used it. It is after all the "Bill Chase" model. Biviano used something like it. Ditto Lynn N back in the day. Even Faddis is said to have put the cup of the 6a4s on a larger rim.
Me? I could use it albeit with the noted customization. However the rim is a little too flat. A better piece for me is in the Al Cass 3x series. These are extinct antiques but similar in dimension only without the flat rim or convex cup.
Essentially the 6a4a is a redesign of a Jettone convex cup. Also the 6a4a has a flat alpha angle. Which can either assist you at bending notes and sliding up glisses. Or? Screw up your slots and make you sound like a kazoo.
Both the very shallow and large pieces are specialty tools. It takes well trained chops to make them work their best. That said?
Im thinking that beginners might consider starting out on such pieces. Al Cass had noted that his beginners did best in his screamer 3x series. Because they're easier to support on smaller bodies and untrained chops.
When a beginner uses a smaller piece he soon learns that the trumpet is not such a darn hard ax to play. Conversely when he plays a sharp edged, deep piece? He learns that it hurts to blow the trumpet.
I consider most of today's mouthpiece designs and many of the recommendations made to be obsolete theories. Conventional thinking leading to conventional and unacceptable results.
Good luck with your 6a4a!
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Benge.nut
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Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Schilke 6A4A |
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| TrpPro wrote: | | Looking for pros and cons on the 6A4A. Never tried one until recently but I'm finding it to be quite a mouthpiece. |
People call that piece "small" or a "screamer or cheater"
I disagree with most of that. I like the rim shape and feel, but the rim SIZE for me is too big.
The cup isn't super shallow, in fact it's quite balanced. I think the cup and the backbore yield a very nice bright sound.
For me, it's just too big and open. Others sound great on it. It's not quite the piece that Chase had made. His "6A4a" was much closer to an exact copy of his Jet-tone. So there was a bit more of a convex cup shape, tighter throats and more of an underbite than the modern piece has.
You'll get a clear, bright sound and it's a heck of a design for commercial and lead trumpet playing, if you like the rim size. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Schilke 6A4A |
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| Lionel wrote: | | I consider most of today's mouthpiece designs and many of the recommendations made to be obsolete theories. Conventional thinking leading to conventional and unacceptable results. |
Lionel, this is somewhat vague to me. I.e. isn't a Schilke based on old information? Isn't a Curry based on "new" information? Yet, both are contemporary.
Could you break this down to specifics by maker? For example could you put these mouthpieces in two groups? One based on obsolete theories and Two, more contemporary information?
The mouthpieces I can think of off the top of my head:
Curry
Schilke
Purviance
Horn Trader
New
Giardenelli
Bach
Wick
Marcinkiewicz
Parduba
Muck
Yamaha
Thanks.
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Schilke 6A4A |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | Lionel wrote: | | I consider most of today's mouthpiece designs and many of the recommendations made to be obsolete theories. Conventional thinking leading to conventional and unacceptable results. |
Lionel, this is somewhat vague to me. I.e. isn't a Schilke based on old information? Isn't a Curry based on "new" information? Yet, both are contemporary.
Could you break this down to specifics by maker? For example could you put these mouthpieces in two groups? One based on obsolete theories and Two, more contemporary information?
The mouthpieces I can think of off the top of my head:
Curry
Schilke
Purviance
Horn Trader
New
Giardenelli
Bach
Wick
Marcinkiewicz
Parduba
Muck
Yamaha
Thanks. |
Well ya know Mr K I'm kind of an oldtimer. Back in the day we mostly played Bach and occassionally Schilke. Conventional wisdom saud,
Start on Bach 7C
Switch to 3C in high school
1C in college.
That may not be written in stone anywhere but I sure got fed those directives. And directives they were! Nit suggestions! I almost killed my chops trying to blow lead in the college big band on my 1&1/4 C.
It wasnt til on the road when I switched back to my high school method of using the shallowest piece I could handle.
Today I think Curry has some nice pieces. Least thatz what my old high school band director uses today. Since Al Cass is long gone. I still use Cass though. Save & except for the piece I made myself and it has a rim contour exactly like an Al Cass 3x series.
Marcinkiewizc is cool too. He's probably the good compromise for the cat who wants something between Cass and Bach.
While I love Cass pieces those who want more definition on the rim wont like Cass. This is because Al Cass pieces fit so snugly onto the lips they feel likd butter. And since I hate sharp, flat rims? Cass is perfect. Also I have a theory that receded jaw players ought to consider more rounded rims. This may be the reason Herb Alpert switched to Marcinkiwicz.
Hey waddaya know? A lionel post that takes less than 15 mins to read...
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TrpPro
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Location: Riverview, FL
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Schilke 6A4A |
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| Lionel wrote: |
This piece and its various incarnations was among the most common scream piece in usage back in the day. (etc., etc.....) |
Thx. Great info! Just what I was looking for.
Now, another question for anyone. How does the 6A4A stack up against the Laskey 40ES? |
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Brad361
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Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 11:04 am Post subject: |
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I'm an old timer (62) myself, but I just don't get anyone "recommending" specific alterations or mouthpiece sizes to anyone else. What I am using now (GR/Northern Brass) works well for me, now, but certainly may not work for the next guy.
I've said it before, one guy's "grail" mpce is a silver plated paperweight for someone else, there are WAY to many individual factors involved.
For me, a 6a4a is unplayable, but that's ME.
Brad
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Lionel
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | I'm an old timer (62) myself, but I just don't get anyone "recommending" specific alterations or mouthpiece sizes to anyone else. What I am using now (GR/Northern Brass) works well for me, now, but certainly may not work for the next guy.
I've said it before, one guy's "grail" mpce is a silver plated paperweight for someone else, there are WAY to many individual factors involved.
For me, a 6a4a is unplayable, but that's ME.
Brad |
7
I hear ya. We dont want to paint with too broad of a brush stroke. Yet those tight back throat/back bore combinations on such shallow pieces?
I mean have you tried them? My god they put out so much freaking pure edge in the tone it can damn near sound humorous. Give ya an extreme example. Two years ago almost to the day I carved out my existing mouthpiece and did it on my own lathe. This is a magnificent mouthpiece for me as Ive stated here various times. Has allowed me to start closing in on Double C. My C becoming "usable on the bandstand". Not just a note in the practice room. But it is shallower even than 6a4a. How much shallower is just my guess but perhaps up to 20% shallower. Which puts my current piece close to the edge of playability for most trumpet players.
Five years ago I wouldnt have been able to use my current piece. Am mentioning this to Brad specifically because a mouthpiece which is "too small" today may be fine next year. As the ability to use smaller mouthpieces is not learned overnight. In fact I think I could write an interesting pamphlet on "How To Break In A Shallower Mouthpiece". Just from the stuff Ive learned the past couple years.
There are tricks to working onto a shallower piece. One trick I discovered was when I had a piece which was so shallow that it wouldnt always work for me? I waited until later in the gig or rehearsal when my chops felt substantial fatigue. Maybe after I felt like I was about to lose the ability to hit say, my otherwise solid high F. Lose it to endurance loss.
Now oddly enough at just about the point where I was "losing it" on a high F or E whatever? This was when my shallower, new piece would starstartkick in. Becoming usable when before I tired I couldn't use it reliably. And this was a most welcome and opportune happenstance lemme tell ya. Because now I had essentially doubled my endurance by,
1. Using my old die hard piece to start the night. The,
2. Switching on over to my smaller scream piece as fatigue set in.
And as even more time passed? I stuck the newest and most shallow piece into the horn right at the beginning of the night. I had effectively learned how to use it by making a graduated transition...
Well my first incarnation of this piece still had the original #28 throat. Like Schilke put on his "a4a" series and Al Cass put on most everything unless you custom ordered it more open.
Well lemme tell ya this first prototype of my current piece put out so much edge that each recording almost glowed in the dark. Some of my peers really dug it but I was running scared for weeks wondrin if one of my homies was ever gonna blackmail me by putting the thing on Youtube. Crissake it was so loud and edgy that it seemed damned near radioactive. I never heard a lead player put out so much sheer edge in the tone. Frightening! And the craziest part was that none of my fellows even thought it was scewed up at all! In fact if they said anything at all it was "nice work Lionel". I completely disagreed with their opinion. Heck even the bandleader, another trumpet player was not bothered by it but I knew I had to change things.
So sometime in the autumn of 2015 I opened the throat up to a #16 and altered the back bore too. Cause unless you customize that back bore you will also lengthen the throat when you open it up.
Lengthening the throat always throws the upper register flat. Uncorrectable by lipping either.
By the way,
A #16 back bore works beautifully on my current piece. Sounds as fat as a Bach 3C
With about 1/3rd to work to pull it off!
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bach_again
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Schilke 6A4A |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | | TrpPro wrote: | | Looking for pros and cons on the 6A4A. Never tried one until recently but I'm finding it to be quite a mouthpiece. |
People call that piece "small" or a "screamer or cheater"
I disagree with most of that. I like the rim shape and feel, but the rim SIZE for me is too big.
The cup isn't super shallow, in fact it's quite balanced. I think the cup and the backbore yield a very nice bright sound.
For me, it's just too big and open. Others sound great on it. It's not quite the piece that Chase had made. His "6A4a" was much closer to an exact copy of his Jet-tone. So there was a bit more of a convex cup shape, tighter throats and more of an underbite than the modern piece has.
You'll get a clear, bright sound and it's a heck of a design for commercial and lead trumpet playing, if you like the rim size. |
Hey man, I totally agree with all your points and have had very similar experiences! Too big and open for me, but I got a very pleasing tone on it. Very pure. The Faddis model I also tried felt similar. Maybe more open owing to the wider rim. Man it sounded class. Alas, too big.
Best,
Mike
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ljazztrm
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Joined: 03 Dec 2001
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Benge.nut wrote:
TrpPro wrote:
Looking for pros and cons on the 6A4A. Never tried one until recently but I'm finding it to be quite a mouthpiece.
People call that piece "small" or a "screamer or cheater"
I disagree with most of that. I like the rim shape and feel, but the rim SIZE for me is too big.
The cup isn't super shallow, in fact it's quite balanced. I think the cup and the backbore yield a very nice bright sound.
For me, it's just too big and open. Others sound great on it. It's not quite the piece that Chase had made. His "6A4a" was much closer to an exact copy of his Jet-tone. So there was a bit more of a convex cup shape, tighter throats and more of an underbite than the modern piece has.
You'll get a clear, bright sound and it's a heck of a design for commercial and lead trumpet playing, if you like the rim size.
Hey man, I totally agree with all your points and have had very similar experiences! Too big and open for me, but I got a very pleasing tone on it. Very pure. The Faddis model I also tried felt similar. Maybe more open owing to the wider rim. Man it sounded class. Alas, too big.
Best,
Mike
Lionel
PostPosted: |
Yeah guys, same experiences here. I do better with the smaller diameters.. I go by the Storks info: http://storkcustom.com/doctor-mouthpiece/ It's possible, if you find yourself bottoming out on very shallow pieces, one factor that could cause this is the diameter being too big for you. I'd be curious to try a 3X5 these days..I used to have one years back..but my chops have changed now and are a lot more efficient.. Derek at Legends is making a copy now...and he makes GREAT copies.. Curious to see the difference in playability and brightness between the 6a4a and the smaller diameter 3X5 at .617. I go for the absolutely brightest sound I can get out of a piece for the gigs I do that require it.. it's easy for me to switch to deeper pieces when I need to..but I need that super-bright powerhouse piece for those gigs where I should have a mic, or am improperly miked..or where it's just so loud. All the best, Lex
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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I played a Schilke 8A4 in a big band for many years. That last "a" in the 6A4a (and other Schilkes) means the backbore is way too tight for my liking.
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale Proctor wrote: | | I played a Schilke 8A4 in a big band for many years. That last "a" in the 6A4a (and other Schilkes) means the backbore is way too tight for my liking. |
Then you'd hate my schilke "aa" I have. It's stamped ""aa and ZINGER"
It's been chopped to fit Warburton threads and cut for sleeves and is quite the laser beam 
I used it on the road with two summer circus runs I did. Haven't really touched it since |
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ljazztrm
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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If only they made a 3a4a!
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Lionel
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| ljazztrm wrote: | | If only they made a 3a4a! |
Actually I think Schilke did make such a piece. Maybe even by the exact same number. Think it was made for Alan Wise way back in the day.
But dont quote me. Although I know for a fact that I once heard from a most reliable source that such a piece was once made. Never-the-less go ahead and make an inquiry to Schilke.
By the way. It was Terry Warburton himself who once explained what is going on in all "A4a" mouthpieces. That and he explained why he wont make mouthpieces like this series unless you specifically ask him to make one custom. Here's his explanation.
The "A4a" models all have sharp alpha angles. Meaning that the cup doesnt start to drop off directly into the cup as it rounds the inner rim bite. Instead it makes a more gradual transfer. And according to Warburton this makes these pieces touchier to slot. Now I'm gonna go into my own interpretation of what I think this means.
When a mouthpiece is made with an "A4a" cup design the alpha angle tends to be felt by my upper lip more easily. This because for obvious reasons the alpha angle in the A4a series does not drop off directly down into the mouthpiece. This is definitely not a classical trumpet mouthpiece. In fact it probably isnt even a good piccolo trumpet piece either.
And the reason that this can be undesireable for all except perhaps the well trained prifessional is that this "flatter" alpha angle (for want of a better term..) will allow the tone to slide up and down easier. Thus lip smears and "doits" can be executed with greater ease.
And if you're already a solid lead player and want to have more flexibility in playing these kinds of smears? So much the better. Also the flatter alpha angle, like the shallower cup will definitely assist the lead player at sustaining his higher tones.
But if you're just starting to learn high notes? The A4a mouthpiece can easily make you sound like a kazoo. Too much edge in the tone and with far too much instability in the pitch. Unless you have a strong sense of intonation and great control of ypur breath and chop? The A4a is not for you.
Also? I tend to question the use of any of the A4a's being used on shallower pieces unless you can truly get a big sound on such a tight back bore and throat combination. Some cats can soud pretty fat on tight back bores coupled with shallow mouthpieces. I however can not. So on all of my shallowest pieces I use very open throats with customized back botes.
And so should most who venture into the shallow pieces. Back before I had my most recent mouthpiece completed I played a gig on it with a tight back bore. Never Again! Is what I remarked after. Because the damned thing churned out so much edge it nearly made me laugh. My buddies liked it but I did not.
Overly tight throats are a most questionable choice. I say unless both ypu and your mates like your sound? Go with at least a number 24 throat. You wontneed the tight back bore to project. The shallow cup will do the trick all on its own.
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ljazztrm
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Hey Lionel, the information by the Storks on trumpet mouthpieces has been extremely beneficial to me: http://storkcustom.com/doctor-mouthpiece/
Yeah, Warburton doesn't go too soft on their bites.. I wouldn't want to go any sharper than the Warburton bites.. I would describe it as a medium-to-medium-soft bite. I do well on the MF designs - especially after experimenting with Lynn's MF protocol. But I also use a buzz-aid for 10 minutes every day as that also really helps my chops. I use a Stomvi GHM a fair amount, which is a scaled down version of MF's 50's/60's piece basically with some of Stomvi's modifications/improvements. All the best, Lex
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Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
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ljazztrm
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:05 am Post subject: |
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I can get a very bright, big lead sound out of a 6a4a for awhile..but the diameter is too big for me..I think I've heard that about Alan's piece before he went to Monette..and might be playing Legends now.. I don't care for the rim on Alan's pieces.. He has thick lips and I have thin lips so there are characteristics that don't work for me on his rim.
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Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
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awisetpt
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:43 pm Post subject: Schilke and a4a |
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I did play a Schilke, built by Laskey, for about 20 years. I never played the a backbone as it was too tight. The change to Monette came after the Maynard 75th in Boston. I am playing Legends now. I am also using a flatter rim.
BTW ....Did you know the old Schilke backbores were Sears reamers?
Best,
Alan Wise |
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RussellDDixon
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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This is all very interesting and I like what I am hearing from you guys who actually play gigs etc. one thing that is confusing however, is how guys like Brian MacDonald, Roger Ingram, Steve Patrick, Steve Reid etc. play such small equipment with shallow pieces and tight throats/back bores. I constantly here that this is playing more efficiently and some players are now using 29 & 30 throats ?
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EdMann
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Hey, that's Alan Wise. Still dig your book, sir!
I can tell you that the late Billy Lamb played this piece, and he had a sound up and down the horn to die for. I can't play the damn thing.
ed |
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Lionel
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| RussellDDixon wrote: | | This is all very interesting and I like what I am hearing from you guys who actually play gigs etc. one thing that is confusing however, is how guys like Brian MacDonald, Roger Ingram, Steve Patrick, Steve Reid etc. play such small equipment with shallow pieces and tight throats/back bores. I constantly here that this is playing more efficiently and some players are now using 29 & 30 throats ? |
I am similarly perplexed for exactly the same reasons as you are Russell.
I get it that really shallow cups can work on very open throats. This is what I play when on lead and also what I consider my "main" m/piece. My throat is opened to about a #15. Thats a biggie. However anything approaching standard throat bores such as #'s 26 - 28? Way too tight. Unmusical amount of edge!!!
Similarly I get it that larger pieces such as Bach 3C TO 1C can use more closed throats. Like 27 and 28. Better control for classical work. Traditional sound.
But for me personally? I simply can not work with really really shallow stuff on tight back bores. But then again perhaps I should define what I consider "shallow" cups and "tight" back bores.
As I said, my main piece is also my "screamer" lead piece. This is the one I perform most my jazz and lead on. Is also the one which I practice on the most. Since I cut this piece from another blank myself? I can't easily explain what it compares with. I do know however that it is between 15 to 20% shallower and smaller than say our "notorious" 6a4a.
In other words my mouthpiece runs smaller than any stock mouthpieces which I know of. That said it is still nowhere near as small as Cat Anderson's even more notorious scream piece. My God! That piece looks to be less than 50% of the size of the 6a4a!!
And while we dont actually know which charts The Cat blew this piece on and ehich he didnt? I think its fair for me to infer that he used it for most if not all his double and triple C work. And when he performed this work he played pretty dog gone fat in his tone. While I have heard other double C's that I like better? I considered Cat to be a fine quality scream player.
Wish that I knew what throat size was on Cat's piece. Just for my own satisfaction.
And yet Russell, When I start using mouthpieces of more conventional sizes? Heck even those stock pieces but on the shallow side?
I can seem to use them in tight throats. Just so long as I dont overblow them. Like when playing soprano cornet parts which typically "sit" on a concert high B flat. So long as I just get a "piece" of the note it'll work fine even on the smaller #28 throat. Ive never experiemented with anything tighter.
So my "rule" for the tight back bores is,
A. All stock very shallow pieces? Okay for some piccolo, E Flat soprano and even B flat trumpet/cornet so long as I dont hammer the notes.
B. Straight out lead and screach work with big sound? Extra shallow cups (for survival lol) but with monster large throats.
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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