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Air leaking from corners while playing



 
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jan110
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 7:15 am    Post subject: Air leaking from corners while playing Reply with quote

Hello!

I know that TH is trumpet related forum, but still I try to get some help from here:

I am playing French horn professionally almost 15 years. During last years my playing has been OK, but in this January after 4 quite heavy musical concerts as a 1st horn, I recognized that I have done something stupid with my embouchure. I am leaking air from the corners, especially in the middle register and when switching from low to high and vice versa.

Is it because of improper air support, which affects and hurts lips, so they quite swollen?

I put a short videoclip into Youtube, if you turn volume to max, you should hear air leaking sound.

https://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=QOkdHXJH7FKxzYkL&u=/watch%3Fv%3DnTlLKO49EnI%26feature%3Dem-upload_owner

Perhaps someone has anything good to suggest what to do, because it makes playing a battling experience and it has happened already for a 6 months.

Could it be like some focal dystonia?

Things I have tried and did not work: pulling hand more out from the bell, changing instrument holding angel.

It just feels so umcomfortable to play.

Thanks and hope to get some feedback and hints!
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Trptca
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to the basics:

1) blow air into a tube
2) hunt down and destroy tension

I see hesitancy to fully blow into the instrument. It's like you're trying to feel the notes with the lips, and the air is getting really backed up at that point. Try playing scales without forming an embouchure, just let it go completely slack and flappy. This will sound bad obviously, BUT it will key you into what no muscular activation is like. Also, work and think on the idea of "zero" in the practice room. Zero tension, panic, worry; just be empty and blow air into a tube and don't be concerned with the outcome.

You'll be fine! I don't think you did any physical damage from what I can see.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couple of years ago same thing happened to me. It was after a period of
"heavy" practice and soon enough my chops were gone. Leaking left corner of mouth, lips feeling extremely feeble, finally I was barely able to blow a standard C; all power gone; then suddenly OK again, but weak again etc etc.
To make a long story short - by the help of a pro I was able to virtually re-install my chops, this time in an appropriate manner.
My chops, from the beginning was OK most of my life but when the demands got bigger, I grew older, the basic faults surfaced.
Overuse syndrom was one explanation, collapsing chops under (unnecessary) pressure another.You name it.
Collapsing chops in at least my case meant that I was no longer able to focus, reverting to "smiling" embouchure thereby disclosing weakness in the "apertureholdingsystem", that is to say leaking sides.
Today my chops are in good order but, there is a tendency to leaking, left side (I also place the mpc a trifle to the right due to a "certain tooth".

So the solution was re-installing embouchure, at all times focussing on "not-smiling". The "mean old man look" prescribed by the BE method has been of tremendous help!
By the way you may get some ideas from:http://beforhorn.blogspot.se/
Hornblowing is one special art! From deep down to the skies - lips having to be able to move a lot. Valerie might have some ideas?!

Good luck don´t smile though Better look this way:
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Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Wed May 24, 2017 4:31 am; edited 3 times in total
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I can hear the air escaping from the corners. I also noticed that you start with a flat chin but your chin bunches up at times. Is that the way you've always played, or has this developed since your troubles began?

I can't diagnose the problem with certainty over the internet, of course, but it might be embouchure overuse syndrome. Lucinda Lewis (also a French Horn player) encountered this trouble earlier in her career and came up with a rehabilitation program that fixed it. Since then, she's written about it and helped others, and she's become a noted chop doc along the way.

Embouchure overuse syndrome can have a variety of symptoms, including what you are experiencing. Check out her website, embouchures.com, for examples of her discussion of these problems. I strongly recommend you check out her rehabilitation program too. It's different than the conventional wisdom you might hear from others, but it really works.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are lots of different schools of brass pedagogy... and lots of contradictions between them - you'll probably see (quite quickly) that you get a wide variety of different suggestions to fix the same problem.


Even professional players can benefit from taking lessons from experienced teachers - no matter how good we get as players, sometimes it's just good to have someone give us a critical look on what we can still improve (because no matter who we are, we must always strive to improve at least to prevent stagnation).

Ultimately, I think your best bet is to find a teacher who has experience of chop problems and get their opinion - if your playing is still good, but you feel the air leaks are an indicator of problems beginning then it makes sense to look for solutions before it gets any worse... or atleast get clarification from someone who really knows this stuff that there's nothing wrong.


Since you raised the point of "focal dystonia" - I've seen a mixture of opinions on this... I recall reading an opinion on the DSR board (I think it was Doug Elliott?) that focal dystonia is something that doesn't even exist, but that every player he's met that others have diagnosed with it has been a "type switcher" (without going down the rabbithole of Reinhardt classifications that won't mean much) and that it's therefore fixable.


Lucinda Lewis (mentioned above) has an excellent reputation for helping people with chop troubles, as does Doug Elliott (mentioned in above paragraph).
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jan110
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank You to all for your answers!

I also post another videoclip
https://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=R_Ea8kSKqU1xLodN&u=/watch%3Fv%3DQdLfhyBZHGk%26feature%3Dem-upload_owner

About that leaking air: it mostly happening when I am starting to warm up and for example in that Tchaikowsky horn solo excerpt it doesnt take place.

For me I feel its something do to with proper breathing and air support.

Can you someone perhaps give some points which show that you are really using air, not playing just on the lip and hurt it?

Is playing frullato for example the thing which brass player cannot do without proper air support?

Also I have that hesitancy to start the note. How to get rid of that?

I have heard about Lucinda Lewis, but she is mostly talking about so-called blocked buzzing, which I have tried but with no success. Perhaps its me.

So, vacation is coming. Should I take a short rest pf playing the horn, let the lips swell down and start from the beginning?
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As per air escaping from the corners of the mouth (outside of the mouthpiece rim) on any brass instrument, I'm surprised that no one mentions the position of the tongue. If the tongue is placed inside the mouth as it is held while whistling, with the actual tip touching, or nearly touching the bottom front teeth, and the rearward portion against the upper molars, there is very little chance of any air escaping from anywhere outside of the mouthpiece cup area. Certainly not from the outside corners area. Good luck.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suggest you contact Lucinda Lewis with your questions and include links to your videos. She will most likely ask you to record another short video for diagnostic purposes, in which you will show your embouchure from the front and side while you do some block buzzing and again while you play up and down a scale with articulation. This would help her determine whether you might have symptoms of embouchure overuse syndrome or some other problem.

Block buzzing is a diagnostic tool that shows what your embouchure looks like when everything is firm and stable. You compare that to what your embouchure looks like when you're busy playing to see if there's a difference, for example, maybe your chin is bouncing around. On your first video, it was, which made me think you might have embouchure overuse syndrome. I don't mean to imply that it's a sure thing, but it's a possible explanation. Then again, your chin looked fine in the second video, which is why Ms. Lewis might want you to video more diagnostics. Check with Ms. Lewis to see what she thinks.

Good luck!
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
something do to with proper breathing and air support.


Pretty right on with your thought here. You are playing with lips flat instead of focused. Corners should be pushing towards center. Air should be ready behind that with full support. Playing horn is much more body related and small focused embouchure than trumpet. Your lack of embouchure focus is affecting your sound too. It should all be focused and then release for the beginning of the sound. Trumpet players tend to strike to tongue, horn players release to tongue. During long sessions on my horn, I get tired all the way to my tops of my cheeks, but no tiredness at all at the lips. Floppy embouchure results in a loose uncontrolled sound and pressure being used to try and keep it in place.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Air leaking from corners while playing Reply with quote

jan110 wrote:
Hello!

I know that TH is trumpet related forum, but still I try to get some help from here:

I am playing French horn professionally almost 15 years. During last years my playing has been OK, but in this January after 4 quite heavy musical concerts as a 1st horn, I recognized that I have done something stupid with my embouchure. I am leaking air from the corners, especially in the middle register and when switching from low to high and vice versa.

Is it because of improper air support, which affects and hurts lips, so they quite swollen?

I put a short videoclip into Youtube, if you turn volume to max, you should hear air leaking sound.

https://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=QOkdHXJH7FKxzYkL&u=/watch%3Fv%3DnTlLKO49EnI%26feature%3Dem-upload_owner

Perhaps someone has anything good to suggest what to do, because it makes playing a battling experience and it has happened already for a 6 months.

Could it be like some focal dystonia?

Things I have tried and did not work: pulling hand more out from the bell, changing instrument holding angel.

It just feels so umcomfortable to play.

Thanks and hope to get some feedback and hints!



Any minor air leakage from the side of the mouth does not indicate a fault. Not in and of itself.

Dont ask me how I did this but I once calculated how to check the air pressure inside my body while I'm blowing the loudest of my high notes. This figure was somewhere in between 6 - 8 PSI.

(Just as an aside I'm actually thinking of packaging the design for this device and put it in a catalogue. Once I start selling mouthpieces. So a brass player can learn how much PSI his body needs to develop) Its a helpful training tool.)

And 8 psi built up inside the body is very uncomfortable. At sone point above 6 psi the cartilage around my Adam's Apple starts to stretch. At this point if I dont flex certain muscles around my throat? My neck will expand like a bullfrog.

Now at this point there mere loss of a small amount of aur through the sides of my mouth is both inaudible to my audience and fellow musicians. That and irrelevant to the sound produced. As the tone coming out the bell of the hirn will always cover the mild hiss of any air leakage through my mouth.

Still doubt me?

Walk over to any construction site which uses an air compressor to drive nails all day long. Roofers are the most common and best example of this tendency. Anyway no matter how well machined and carefully threaded together these compressors are? They always leak a little pressurized air. Whether its the compressor itself, either end of the hose, any tool it is connected too. Or any part of the device at all. The fact is that these compressors, often working at well over 100 PSI will continue to drive nails or supply pressurized air to any tool along its hose line.

Now our body can only put out a mere fraction of what a machine can supply but even still this pressure is still sufficient to blow all the notes from our oedal register to triple C. Assuming you have an embouchure capable of blowing the triple C.

Conclusion: Dont trip on this matter.

Another area I like to point out the needless concern are those kids who say,

"Always press down your third valve when pulling out the corresponding slide. As failing to do this causes a partial vacuum which can lead to an air leak"

I'm not making this up! People really fear that the pulling (or pushing!) the 3rd valve (or iother silde) of the related slide can increase or decrease as the case may be the air pressure inside the valve. To the extent that they truly believe some weakness can occur in the trumpet...

And here's why this thought is silly,

First of all brass instruments are made of very strong copper alloys we know of as "brass". The seals on these joints do not need to hold back air much more than an excess of 8 psi. As per my calculations show that 8 is about the maximum yield a strong, healthy body can sustain. And indeed metals the thickness of typical brass instruments can hold hundreds of times more psi than anyone else's body can produce. Pressures well above the measly 8 psi which the human body maxes out at. Good thing too! As even 8 psi can cause the throat cartilage to stretch. Possibly causing permanent damage.

And lest anyone, at this point in time, still worry about the valve slide getting damaged by a small decrease or increase in air pressure while the third, valve gets pulled, producing that common "champagne bottle" pop???

Remember that if the pressure is truly THAT great or similarly reduced relative to the exterior air supply? The third valve water key would immediately act like a a "pressure relief valve" and subsequently release/equalize the pressure.
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oj
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Jan,

Maybe you could work on the Caruso six notes? Only using nose breathing.

Julie Landsman has posted this (see link) and other Caruso exercises.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGgOhVms-Zk

I also play horn and have found this exercise helpful when I have noticed some leakages in my playing.

Best wishes,

Ole
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jan110 wrote:
Thank You to all for your answers!

I also post another videoclip
https://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=R_Ea8kSKqU1xLodN&u=/watch%3Fv%3DQdLfhyBZHGk%26feature%3Dem-upload_owner

About that leaking air: it mostly happening when I am starting to warm up and for example in that Tchaikowsky horn solo excerpt it doesnt take place.

For me I feel its something do to with proper breathing and air support.

Can you someone perhaps give some points which show that you are really using air, not playing just on the lip and hurt it?

Is playing frullato for example the thing which brass player cannot do without proper air support?

Also I have that hesitancy to start the note. How to get rid of that?

I have heard about Lucinda Lewis, but she is mostly talking about so-called blocked buzzing, which I have tried but with no success. Perhaps its me.

So, vacation is coming. Should I take a short rest pf playing the horn, let the lips swell down and start from the beginning?


Ain´t gonna get better by resting. You write that the problem developed after strenous work?! Then my theory is that you hurt your embouchure in some way ´cause you got tired in the end and regressed to some faulty embouchure. Why this could happen is difficult to explain; maybe this was just a temporary hurting, making your chops sore, even to the point some internal bleeding occured? or maybe you have a tendency to use bad habits blowing - contradicted by your´e stating you play professionally?
Anyhow Lucinda Lewis´ use of the blocked buzzing is just a way to make oneself aware of various parameters. Too much pressure being one.
Could be that you use a, in the long run, non-functional embouchure, if so go visit a good teeacher; also I sincerely believe you should dial in::http://beforhorn.blogspot.se/
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Getzen 300 series
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trumpetrange
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have experienced this quite a bit over my playing years.

Sometimes I put the horn on my face and feel discomfort immediately, almost like I've been playing in the upper register for 4 hours. I often find myself with a leak at the left side of my embouchure.

One thing that I discovered which has helped me recently is to think more about the air inside the mouth. To think about 'directing' it or 'concentrating' or 'compacting it' into a tiny point on my lips just where the aperture is (instead of just blowing it forwards in the general direction of the lips).

I recently did a post about this on my site:
Focusing or directing the air within the oral cavity.

Another thing I try to be careful of when this problem arises it to positively under absolutely no circumstances allow for strain. So even if that means playing half note G in the staff and then taking a 2 minute break then so be it.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetrange wrote:
I have experienced this quite a bit over my playing years.

Sometimes I put the horn on my face and feel discomfort immediately, almost like I've been playing in the upper register for 4 hours. I often find myself with a leak at the left side of my embouchure.

One thing that I discovered which has helped me recently is to think more about the air inside the mouth. To think about 'directing' it or 'concentrating' or 'compacting it' into a tiny point on my lips just where the aperture is (instead of just blowing it forwards in the general direction of the lips).

I recently did a post about this on my site:
Focusing or directing the air within the oral cavity.

Another thing I try to be careful of when this problem arises it to positively under absolutely no circumstances allow for strain. So even if that means playing half note G in the staff and then taking a 2 minute break then so be it.


I really enjoyed your description. I've looked for ways to put this across to people. I'll circulate the link to my friends.
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jan110
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello and thank You all for Your replies!

I specially thank Richard III and trumpetrange, because I think I have solved my leaking problem for now.

I was playing in front of the mirror and saw that my embouchure was too smiling and there was not enouch puckering. I compared my embouchure from one videoclip I had recorded several years ago.

Then I was tightening my corner muscles and I feel quite well at the moment. My lips are not getting swollen.

I recorded one clip from my playing now:

https://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=gHR9o049DCYEhLbJ&u=/watch%3Fv%3DOXUWnvJV6Xo%26feature%3Dem-upload_owner

You could give me also some feedback about that compered to previous ones.

Sorry, i know my playing there is a bit robust, but I an playing on F-horn where all the notes are with the same fingering and just focusing air.


Thanks!
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jan110 wrote:
Hello and thank You all for Your replies!

I specially thank Richard III and trumpetrange, because I think I have solved my leaking problem for now.

I was playing in front of the mirror and saw that my embouchure was too smiling and there was not enouch puckering. I compared my embouchure from one videoclip I had recorded several years ago.

Then I was tightening my corner muscles and I feel quite well at the moment. My lips are not getting swollen.

I recorded one clip from my playing now:

https://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=gHR9o049DCYEhLbJ&u=/watch%3Fv%3DOXUWnvJV6Xo%26feature%3Dem-upload_owner

You could give me also some feedback about that compered to previous ones.

Sorry, i know my playing there is a bit robust, but I an playing on F-horn where all the notes are with the same fingering and just focusing air.


Thanks!


Still too much movement inside the mouth. Your tongue and everything behind the lips needs to be more focused. Imagine the sides of your tongue always touching the teeth on the sides. Then lower and raise you jaw keeping the tongue on the side teeth. That sort of is the feel like you are looking for. Keeping the focus straight down the middle to the target on your lips.

Further, imagine you are blowing through a cocktail straw. Focus that much.
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jan110
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
jan110 wrote:
Hello and thank You all for Your replies!

I specially thank Richard III and trumpetrange, because I think I have solved my leaking problem for now.

I was playing in front of the mirror and saw that my embouchure was too smiling and there was not enouch puckering. I compared my embouchure from one videoclip I had recorded several years ago.

Then I was tightening my corner muscles and I feel quite well at the moment. My lips are not getting swollen.

I recorded one clip from my playing now:

https://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=gHR9o049DCYEhLbJ&u=/watch%3Fv%3DOXUWnvJV6Xo%26feature%3Dem-upload_owner

You could give me also some feedback about that compered to previous ones.

Sorry, i know my playing there is a bit robust, but I an playing on F-horn where all the notes are with the same fingering and just focusing air.


Thanks!


Still too much movement inside the mouth. Your tongue and everything behind the lips needs to be more focused. Imagine the sides of your tongue always touching the teeth on the sides. Then lower and raise you jaw keeping the tongue on the side teeth. That sort of is the feel like you are looking for. Keeping the focus straight down the middle to the target on your lips.

Further, imagine you are blowing through a cocktail straw. Focus that much.



But better than in previous videoclip?
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But better than in previous videoclip?


Yes.

Here is the progression:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTlLKO49EnI&feature=em-upload_owner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdLfhyBZHGk&feature=em-upload_owner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXUWnvJV6Xo&feature=em-upload_owner

Listening to one after the other, what I hear is the last one you are using more air but not controlling it and in a sense overblowing a bit. That causes the "blattiness" common in horns when doing that. Keeping the air there but focusing it and not blowing through the horn like in a trumpet works better.

I benefited hugely from a back and forth with my teacher at one time. It sounded like me play, him play, me play, him play and so forth until I got it in my head.
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