Trumpet Test/Comparison Results - Purchase: Schilke B5B

[Mr Bebop]

Dear All Forum Members,

Two days ago, I was at Thomann-Treppendorf to test some trumpets in comparison with my other trumpets. Since, I've tested a lot in 6 hours timeframe, I thought it might make sense for you if I'd share my personal experience and findings with you....

Here we go;

Background: I'm an amateur player who practices app 3 hours everyday - playing mostly jazz/blues. Started about 3 years ago. Before that I've played semi-pro level guitar for more than 25 years. My current instruments are Yamaha 8310z, Adams A9-LB and Adams A4.

Throughout the 6 hours I've tested:
* Yamaha 8345 R: Open feeling in all registers - balanced resistance. Gets an energetic character with a brilliant sound when pushed forward. Surprisingly I was not expecting such a sound match capability to potential commercial applications from a rather classically marketed instrument. The energy and brilliance (with all mouthpieces) I was getting was even more than the A1 - this was the surprising part for me actually where both are marketed as all-rounders but my initial prejudice was like the A1 would be more commercial sounding and the 8335 R would suit more to classical. However, the energized sound and power I was getting was quite raw and not refined - what I mean is too much lows and highs and lost mids. The valves and overall body meat feeling were also much better than my 8310Z. However, in terms of valve precision and overall accuracy, I definitely would go for either Adams or Schilke. Overall, if I could have gone back within time, I would have taken this one instead of 8310Z. But an exchange is not worth the effort from my point of view. I'm quite happy with the 8310.

* Kanstul 1500: This was on my shortlist for some time now as I was really wondering if I'm missing something in my collection with the missing copper belled instrument. And I have to confess that yes I was.... The copper bell of this instrument really makes a significant difference in terms of tone colors and overall balance of highs, mids and bass frequencies - If you'd ask me, the tone colors was much better than the B5 with regular copper bell (details below). The tone is full and round with also clear articulations (this was my worry that the thick and soft copper would kill the little playing nuances and etc). Tonewise, its shortcomings for me started after high D where the tone did not get hot enough and still kept its mid-range-like character. It had a comfortable open blow without any stuffiness at all - however, much more open feeling than even the 8345R - although the Yamaha was LB with reversed lead pipe. So for consistent high register applications would have been problematic for me both in terms of sound (keeping the same eq balance throughout) and blow comfort (might lead to endurance issues in long time playing) where for mid-range all around playing - a really outstanding instrument. The valves were quite slow and inefficient but I read that Kanstul valves are generally like that in the beginning and get better the more they're being used with continuous cleaning and maintenance.

* Kanstul Chicago 1000:A very unique instrument this one. Different tone balance - although a brass bell, much closer overall eq balance to either gold brass or copper without harsh presence and more boosted mids. Nevertheless, overall brass bell qualities are also still there. In the beginning stage of the test, I really was falling for it and almost taking the credit card out immediately. The intonation was a little (but really very little) more off than the others but still very acceptable. Valve precision and comfort was not very good though. In terms of blow behavior, I cannot say it's a stuffy horn but also not a very open and uncomfortable horn. Still tighter than both 8345R and Kanstul 1500 though but more open than 8310z for example. Surprisingly I did not observe a lot of hit&miss situations (in many posts it's commented that the slots were very slippery on this horn) - I do not know, maybe I was playing with more concentration this particular one as I already were prejudiced from comments. Nevertheless, the slots were still more flexible than others, especially Yamaha and both Schilkes. For commercial applications above the staff, as its overall mids presence is much more balanced with its lows and highs than both 8310z and 8345R, I'd say it was almost what I was looking for. For me, if I had not gone for the B5B, this would be the one. Main reasons I have not chosen this one were i)the sound colors were a better match with what I was looking for with the Schilke (better mix of lows, highs and mids especially after g above the staff), ii) valves precision were better with the Schilke and iii) projection with Schilke felt like it would be much easier to fill bigger playing environments.

* Bach New York 7 LT180S77: Similar to Kanstul Chicago, but like a bigger brother feeling with better valves and intonation - a little brighter tone with more presence and highs and lesser mids; not same eq mix with regular strads I had previously tried although of course still has that traditional Bach sound character (that duck-like tone if you know what I mean) faintly in the background. Very good horn with very nice sound pattern and strong projection but of course less compact and more spread sound distribution in comparison with Schilke B5, Kanstul Chicago 1000, Adams A1,...etc. Nevertheless, I had doubts it could have been too tiring after consistent high notes playing for some time thus making it harder in terms of overall sustainability. But for stronger players, always a strong alternative to consider with the B1 if you have the body power on par with the horn's capabilities. For all-rounder purposes, very nice choice.

* Adams A1: Very warm tones (much less harshness in the highs - that my understanding is that it can be because of copper used in the upper parts of valve casings that prevent the highs getting out of control when the instrument gets pushed) but still energetic highs (still 0.50 brass bell). A good and easy/comfortable even blow pattern (although non-reverse LP and ML bore, not tightness at all / tested with the larger tuning slide; almost as open as Yamaha 8345 R). Intonation was just a smidge worse than Yamaha and Schilke but better than the Chicago. Very good all-around horn. For me, its main shortcoming were the sound/eq color mix in the high notes (after high E) and projection. If my estimations are right, with Sterling Silver 0.40 Bell supported with rose brass leadpipe with existing copper upper valve clusters, this horn would be a real heartbreaker....

* Adams A5:I initially thought this horn would be similar but better than Kanstul Chicago 1000 but it seems I was wrong except the valves quality. My personal experience is that in terms of sound colors, Chicago is much richer and much more balanced in terms of content where the highs are much more present in A5 but not as harsh as 8310z and 8345R. For mid-range playing, I observed nothing outstanding but standard performance on par with instruments in the same price range.

* B&S MBX2: Nothing very spectacular but still a good horn with above average characteristics in almost all attributes, tone, blow, comfort, valves, intonation,...etc. Nevertheless, I cannot state any attribute that makes this horn stand out from the others I've tried.

* B&S Elaboration 2:Sounded like the little brother of Bach New York but with much more harshness (in par with if not even more than 8345R) in the hihs when pushed. I've not tried but it might be the same case with LT37 Bach Strad. Valves almost in par with Bach New York, much better than 8310z and 8345R (from Yamaha family, I had previously tried the 25th Anniversary horn and Chicago - the Elaboration 2's valve quality was almost same level as these Yamahas). But still, I could have only considered this one if I did not have the 8310z.

* B&S JBX:Very similar to Elaboration 2.

* Schilke B5 (both Regular Copper and Beryllium Bell):This is the one (beryllium bell version is the one I finally have bough) I finally have selected. Sound color was almost as thick (with a little more concentration required of course) as the Kanstul 1500 (not as thick as the regular bell B5 and my existing Adams A4 of course) in the low/mid register but exactly what I was looking for in high register especially a real heart-breaker after high E; just the right mix of highs mids and lows surrounded with the right amount of compactness. Overall resistance balance was much better than my 8310z where I felt a rather more open blow with the Beryllium bell. Valves are perfect - in par with my A4. Responsiveness (both versions) is also great where with Beryllium a little bit more. With M3 mouthpiece at low/mid registers were not very bright (I was afraid I would experience an in-comfortably bright/harsh sound with Beryllium bell but I did not) and especially with the 14A4A, the sound in the high register were exactly what I was looking for - the high register performance was the main reason I did not select the regular bell B5. What can I say, just what I needed.

* Schilke B1 (Standard Brass Bell):I was afraid first (from the comments I had read in these forums) that this horn would be more open even from the A4 (gauge with mine is 0.40 by the way and I have the heavy large bore version) that I have. But it was not the case. Openness in comparison with the B5 was just a little bit more due to the bigger throat of the bell. Similarly the sound strength is also not much more than my Adams A4 (this horn, if not yet read the other reviews, is really a monster of its own...that's why I have bought it) but of course much more spread than B5 (both versions). Sound colors (eq mix) was much better than the 8345R and my 8310Z (where Bach New York had just a smidge better mix). This would be my 3rd choice (1st: B5 beryllium, 2nd: Kanstul Chicago, 3rd: B1, 4th: Bach New York).

used mouthpieces were Schilke M3 and 14 for all-around test and Schilke 14A4 & 14A4A for upper register (I've tested the horns until Double Ab - I cannot go any higher)

Although a long message, I thought it might make sense to share my personal experience within my 6 hours engagement/flirt time with these horns as I have not seen such a big comparison list in previous postings. Will be glad if it helps to enlighten anyone out there.

Cheers.

[Grits Burgh]

You may have won the prize for the best 1st post ever.

Regards,
Grits
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy.

[delano]

You play the trumpet for three years and you have a real double Aflat?
Do you realise that that is more than a fifth above double C?
And you play jazz and blues and select a horn especially for everything above high E?
I am not a lead player and have no ambition in that direction but I suppose that there are not many first books wich go above high G.
And I didn't research it but I don't think I ever heard Miles Davis or Freddie Hubbard or....play above high E or maybe F.


http://www.trumpetmaster.com/vb/f131/double-c-read-before-posting-anything-45824.html

[Mr Bebop]

To delano: yes, what's the problem ?

For double high Ab, I think I've worked really hard for it. A lot of discovery and innovation to smartly manage in-the-mouth compression. As far as I know, double Ab is not higher than double C, but just the opposite where after high E, starts the double F and so forth... please of course feel free to correct me whereas necessary.

For jazz/blues; I've finished Berklee's correspondence course when playing the guitar with almost all solos of Charlie Parker's omnibook. My dream is to play good bebop with the trumpet if I can. Diz and Miles are my heroes then Sandoval and Clifford Brown.

For Miles: highest I came in my personal transcriptions are the high Eb in his "Freddie Freeloader" recording and high E in his live performance of "Straight No Chaser".

About the B5: to avoid any misunderstandings, I've tried to mention that I was also quite satisfied with its all-around tones (where the outstanding qualities of the Beryllium bell really represents themselves after high E if you'd ask me) however yes, the high notes performance of this horn is what really sold me out.

Cheers.

[Brad361]

[etc-etc]

[bach_again]

Vintage TH.

I've heard guys call Ab sitting on 4 ledgers "double" as well as the octave above. Who cares? It's splitting hairs.

While we are talking range - I've a bootleg of Miles at a high school where he's tearing up Gs and As. On bitches brew and Aura with Palle Mikkelborg he's also playing real strong up there. Freddie in a number of solos plays double Cs. He's always got a lot of intensity playing up top in his solos!!

Back on topic:

Nice review! You got to try some neat horns. What was the acoustic like where you were testing? I wouldn't mind hearing what you make of the A9, A4 and 8310z horns. Just curious what you make of them!

Best,
Mike
_________________
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https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk

Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
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The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU

[Mr Bebop]

Hello Bach-Again,

The test room was a standard app 6 Mts x 10 Mts room with a glass door where every where is full of trumpets and flugels on stands. A good (not too much) amount of natural reverb.

Especially both Adams horns are unique soloist type horns where for me A9 is fit mostly for thick jazz/bebop sounds, and A4 is for high volume / high bark huge sound requiring occasions including also high note sessions supported with narrow throat high compression pieces. With A4 and a Mid/big size and big throat piece like Monette B4S3, I get a volume in Mid range almost as double (at least it feels like that) as the others. I'm afraid though that with the addition of B5B, it seems 8310z would be obsolete. Any recommendations from your side?

Have a good one...

[kehaulani]

[bike&ed]

[bach_again]

[kehaulani]

It's simple, why mystify it?

The first octave is "low",
the next is "middle"
the next is "high"
and then comes "double-high".

I don't see the problem.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[etc-etc]

[Seymor B Fudd]

[p76]

Great review Mr. Bebop, you have managed to express the difference between these horns in a way that makes sense one against the other.

I'm right with you in thinking the Yamaha "classical" horns are a surprisingly good choice for commercial playing.

And not surprised you liked the K1000, my 1001 is a ripper horn.

Enjoy your Schilke!

Cheers,
Roger
_________________
Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel

[LittleRusty]

[etc-etc]

Not always middle C=C5:

"MIDI Note Numbers

The MIDI specification only defines note number 60 as "Middle C", and all other notes are relative. The absolute octave number designations shown here are based on Middle C = C5, which is an arbitrary assignment.

There is a discrepancy that occurs between various models of MIDI devices and software programs, and that concerns the octave numbers for note names. If your MIDI software/device considers octave 0 as being the lowest octave of the MIDI note range, then middle C's note name is C5. The lowest note name is then C0 (note number 0), and the highest possible note name is G10 (note number 127).

Some software/devices instead consider the third octave of the MIDI note range (2 octaves below middle C) as octave 0. In that case, the first 2 octaves are referred to as -2 and -1. So, middle C's note name is C3, the lowest note name is C-2, and the highest note name is G8. "
(quoted from http://www.electronics.dit.ie/staff/tscarff/Music_technology/midi/midi_note_numbers_for_octaves.htm)

[LittleRusty]

It has been many years since I wrote midi software and sequenced shows. My memory isn't what it used to be.

How about using SPN where middle C is unambiguously C4?

[Ex-Trumpet]

OP, nice review of several horns. You may not have a lot of experience playing, but it sounds like you have a lot of experience hearing, which is probably more important than anything. (Just keep in mind, what we hear while playing the horn is rarely what folks hear in the hall).
_________________
“The world's No. 1 tennis player spends 90 percent of his time winning, while the world's No. 1 golfer spends 90 percent of his time losing. Golfers are great losers.”
-- David Feherty

[bike&ed]