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What does the term "payin your dues" mean to you?


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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone who recently got chickens, I can offer this analogy:

Paying your dues = Working your way up the pecking order.

Some naturally are above others by sheer ability, intelligence, drive or a brilliant combination of the three. They have less work to do to get noticed and looked​ up to.

And much like chickens in a flock, the rest of us have to work our butts off and prove ourselves, and hope someone notices us. We have to be willing to persist and grunt our way through things we don't like in hopes of making it to the top.
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jimjehu
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 9:43 pm    Post subject: paying dues Reply with quote

rusty,you just wrote my obit
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gstump
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very intellectual stuff here! I hate intellectualizing music or trumpet playing but this is different.

You jam or rehearse in the freebee composers groups or experimental jazz groups to take something from them. You are there to learn from them. Eventually you might be giving more than you are taking. So you hang around and give some back until it is time to go out and make your mark.

It is all about music not bad gigs (or the union).


Gordon
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PH
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of interesting thoughts in this thread.

The number one aspect of dues paying is twofold.
1) Spending thousands of hours "in the 'shed."
2) Spending thousands of hours with recordings of the music until you know dozens (hundreds really) of tunes-not just melody and changes, but intros, endings, send-offs, counter lines, etc.- and can sing most of the classic solos.
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PH
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition to my above comment, it is also immersing yourself in the culture of jazz (as much as it still exists). That doesn't necessarily mean the marketplace of "jazz," but it definitely means finding elders and learning from them the old school way outside of academia...even if they do double duty as academic professors.

PS...Jason has absolutely paid his dues, as has Jeff. Jeff might be an "amateur" now, but let's just say "Ray Charles"...
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question on the table reminds me of that famous quote:

“Man, if you have to ask what jazz is, you’ll never know.” — Louis Armstrong
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lakejw
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great thread. After reading some replies, I have gathered two thoughts about this.

One is the precept that paying dues connotes some kind of material improvement of one's self or situation. For example, this rehearsal doesn't pay but it's with some great musicians. Or, this gig was terrible, but I learned about my boundaries, and to say "no thanks" next time they call.

The other is that you never really stop paying dues. Or, you never should stop. All the things Pat mentioned are difficult, very time-intensive and laborious, but upon reflection are actually really fun to me. It's what I spend my days and nights doing. The desire to pay dues is a bellwether of your passion for music.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having put in the requisite amount of grief to accomplish the stated goal.
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area51recording
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dues paying never ends. I started playing professionally at 18. I'll be 60 tomorrow.......stillllllll payin'.........
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bg
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: What does the term "payin your dues" mean to y Reply with quote

Jason Palmer wrote:
What about the mentor/apprentice philosophy that was so prevalent in the past decades with player such as Blakey, Elvin, Dizzy, Horace Silver hiring younger musicians, giving them the invaluable knowledge that it takes to be a successful jazz musician on the international stage? With fewer oppurtunities out there for the younger musicians to grow from, where does that leave the music?


The younger musicians are now hoping, and perhaps even expecting to get this mentoring in a school. That's a lot of responsibility for the teachers. It should not be taken lightly.
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: What does the term "payin your dues" mean to y Reply with quote

bg wrote:
Jason Palmer wrote:
What about the mentor/apprentice philosophy that was so prevalent in the past decades with player such as Blakey, Elvin, Dizzy, Horace Silver hiring younger musicians, giving them the invaluable knowledge that it takes to be a successful jazz musician on the international stage? With fewer oppurtunities out there for the younger musicians to grow from, where does that leave the music?


The younger musicians are now hoping, and perhaps even expecting to get this mentoring in a school. That's a lot of responsibility for the teachers. It should not be taken lightly.


It also implies an approach to teaching that curriculum design can't ordinarily support, and that many college teachers are either incapable or unwilling to do.
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so what
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: What does the term "payin your dues" mean to y Reply with quote

Jason Palmer wrote:
....What does this age old term mean to you today? ....


Thank you all for the most interesting thread I've read on TH over many years. Keep it going. I've paid some dues, but not (unfortunately) as a musician.
Mark
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Hugh Anderson
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Learning all the aspects of your trade. Doing it long enough to refine it.
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meoates1
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's been said it takes 10 (or 15, or whatever arbitrary amount) years to make an overnight success. That 10-15 years (whether it be practicing, gigging... whatever) is the "paying dues" portion of the equation.
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