Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 76 Location: Cornwall UK
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:17 am Post subject: Recording yourself
Just opinions,
Does anyone else hate listening to themselves on a basic recording. I recorded myself on my Iphone just to test different mouthpiece and leadpipes. What I hear in the practice room which to my ears sounds nice Is nothing compared to what I hear on my phone.
I decided to take this a step forther and record myself on my zoom q8 video. I recorded this at a very low volume but again a very compressed basalt sound and not what I am hearing, anyone else have this problem, I see lots of videos of people playing in their bedrooms and not have this problem of instant mic overload. I have always been told I have a good sound but I am a little worried about what I hear back, I may have to set up a mic and record via logic is this what all these videos do? _________________ Eclipse Celeste MY 2023
B & S Challenger flugelhorn
Previous horns:
Eclipse Celeste CLS MY
Eclipse LY (rear tuned)
Bach ML37
B & S Challenger ii
I had to record myself once for an audition and the only thing I had to record myself was my Iphone. What I did that worked relatively well was to place my Iphone behind me and play in the opposite direction. Try it and see if there's any difference.
You're likely dealing with multiple issues. On your phone, you're dealing with poor microphones along with Automatic Gain Control. The AGC is built into most phones' software and can't usually be turned off, even in the settings, or with a 3rd party app. You end up getting audio levels bouncing up and down when you're playing vs. when you're resting. There are some phones out now that purport to have much better audio recording, with better mics and manual gain settings. I think the LG V20 is one of them.
With the Zoom, you have better recording quality, especially with being able to set your gain manually, but I think the stock microphones are still a bit lacking. I have an H5, and while it sounds better than my smartphone, the stock Zoom microphones don't capture the full spectrum of trumpet sound (even from my teacher, who sounds much better than me). There's less depth and lows in the sound. Sounds very narrow, and a bit nasally. I think when you hear people with really good quality of recordings, they're using a better quality microphone than the one stock on the Zooms. I've felt your pain, though. One of my future goals is to buy a higher quality microphone that I can plug into the XLR port on my H5. I'm not a huge audio junkie, so I don't know what mic that would be yet, but that's what I've figured so far.
Joined: 19 Mar 2015 Posts: 797 Location: Conway, NC
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:09 pm Post subject:
I used to feel the same way. In fact, I asked a very similar question here some months back. To be honest, and borderline blunt (since I've never heard you play), is I found that I really did sound like I sounded on those recordings. And for me, at least, it was cringeworthy. It's similar to how you might feel hearing your own voice recorded. I thought there was no way I could sound like that, but I did.
I've never used anything fancy either, just my iPhone and my iPad with their built in mic, but over the last 6 months or so, I'm far more comfortable in my own skin, and what I record now sounds more like what I used to *think* I sounded like.
My best advice is just stick with it. Make the recordings sound good with the equipment you are working with, and you will, in fact, sound good.
I hope this is helpful. _________________ Isaiah 40:8
3 John 2
the stock Zoom microphones don't capture the full spectrum of trumpet sound (even from my teacher, who sounds much better than me). There's less depth and lows in the sound ...
Unless you're down in the pedal register, the zoom microphones do capture the full low end of the spectrum. They go at least an octave below the low F# on a Bb trumpet. They may not be perfect, but it's not because they don't capture enough of the spectrum. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
I think is probably a little of both. Having a better microphone will make the horn sound more natural than recording on a phone mic. However if you don't listen to yourself recorded very often it is probably also the case that you don't sound the way you think you do. It has been pretty painful and humbling to record and listen to myself playing but it has been so helpful in making improvements. _________________ Scodwell Boston
90's Bach Strad MLV 65GH
1950 Bach Strad 38
1969 Conn 8b Artist
1980 238 CL
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm1qCev_sfof-Bfj5MAMLrQ
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 1139 Location: Essex, England
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:34 pm Post subject:
My recently retired BBC sound technician friend tells me that the essential problem is the nature of the mics available to ordinary people which are "electret capsule" types. He tells me that serious pro recordists always use "ribbon mics" for recording brass instruments, the main reason being that they do no give that 'playing in a bucket' sound.
.......Apparently ribbon mics, although essentially simple in design, are both expensive and delicate to maintain and use and way beyond the average amateur user.
The best sound quality that I have managed myself was by using a Sennheiser video mic (MKE 300 I think), which has the electret capsule down a tube which focuses the sound and gives a much better representation of brass band and cornet sound than the unshielded mics. The video mic was about £100 when new a few years back, so still a budget price item for what it is/was.
Position is almost more important than anything. Off axis and back a bit or prepare for input and capsule distortion.
If you link the video I'm pretty sure I can tell you what the issue is.
Bob Stevenson wrote:
My recently retired BBC sound technician friend tells me that the essential problem is the nature of the mics available to ordinary people which are "electret capsule" types. He tells me that serious pro recordists always use "ribbon mics" for recording brass instruments, the main reason being that they do no give that 'playing in a bucket' sound.
Just to clarify - I am not trying to take you to task - but there's a couple things to address here. Just for background reference - I build mics in my (little) spare time.
Ribbons handle more SPL, so expect 165db or so before they distort - diaphragm/ribbon distortion - not signal distortion like clipping. For condensers/electret condensers that will be MUCH lower. Probably very low on a phone through maybe 130db for the best. If you get up close and personal with a trumpet you can easily distort condensers. That said they aren't inherently bad on trumpet.
The playing into a bucket is not indicative of the technology, more the user. Granted I hate playing in to AKG 414s because they have a horrible overtone representation, but it doesn't sound like a bucket. That's poor use.
Ribbons capture from the rear meaning if you are in a substandard room, they could easily make you sound worse! They don't magically make brass sound great. They are my go-to for brass, but only when I have a nice room.
Now there's lots of pros to ribbons, and they are my favourite mic both to build and to make. They are very flattering in the highs, they have a very useful proximity effect, extremely good for high SPL sources like trumpets, superb side rejection, they take a LOT of EQ before phase becomes an issue.
Here's some recordings I made using a condenser that I built. I think you will agree that, although my playing is far from perfect, that it doesn't sound at all like playing into a bucket. The amount of post production was VERY minimal. I EQ'd a couple room resonances out, added a little reverb and a little mastering limiter. All done in a tiny room.
I will embed a couple, then leave links. Again - all the same condenser.
I don't know if you will be able to view this, but for kicks... here's an SM57 on trumpet on a big band project I tracked trumpets for. I won't tell you how much the preamp etc.... cost, but the SM57 sat in the mix better than anything else.
... serious pro recordists always use "ribbon mics" for recording brass instruments ...
Based on my many years of experience in the professional recording field, I would have to say that that's simply not true. Ribbon mics seem to have a cult following. Although there are certainly many fine ribbon mics, and they can be excellent choices in many situations, dynamics and condensers are also used for brass instruments by some of the most serious and skilled professional recording engineers. For instance, the ElectroVoice RE20, a dynamic mic widely used for brass.
The directional characteristics (aka "pickup pattern") of ribbon microphones can be very inappropriate for many situations, especially if there are multiple musicians recording in the same room at the same time, or if the room itself is not optimal for a ribbon's bi-directional pickup pattern, or if the recording is of a live performance by a band in a concert setting. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 1139 Location: Essex, England
Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:57 am Post subject:
Okay!....I was simply relaying a conversation about recording brass sounds and my friend was very helpful resulting in my crude attempts being at least adequate!........let's change the account to "often use ribbon mics".....
Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Recording yourself
wee steve wrote:
Just opinions,
Does anyone else hate listening to themselves on a basic recording. I recorded myself on my Iphone just to test different mouthpiece and leadpipes. What I hear in the practice room which to my ears sounds nice Is nothing compared to what I hear on my phone.
I decided to take this a step forther and record myself on my zoom q8 video. I recorded this at a very low volume but again a very compressed basalt sound and not what I am hearing, anyone else have this problem, I see lots of videos of people playing in their bedrooms and not have this problem of instant mic overload. I have always been told I have a good sound but I am a little worried about what I hear back, I may have to set up a mic and record via logic is this what all these videos do?
Position the microphone (iPhone) in line with the end of the bell, but standing a few metre to one side.
----
..Mic: |
........\/
o--iii--<
----
This seems to help get the room sound and just a bit of the front/attack in the mix without overwhelming anything. If it doesn't work, try it with the mic 0.5-1 foot infront of aligned with the bell, then try 0.5-1 foot behind. Depending on the room, one of those should give you a fairly okay/naturalish mix of the sound with a phone mic
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 76 Location: Cornwall UK
Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:08 am Post subject:
Ok panic over, I just done some recording via my zoom with an Audio AT8033,
Sounds much better. I was paranoid for a minute that that was actually how I sound. Conclusions are that my articulation has got a little sloppy but nothing I can't sort out, I will record myself with my beta 57 and my rode nt1a to see what sounds best and use that as a practice tool instead of the iphone. I only want to record to pick up my faults not to show anyone. Still got a slight bucket tone but no where near as bad. I'll assume it's me not the Mics and work on it 😊 _________________ Eclipse Celeste MY 2023
B & S Challenger flugelhorn
Previous horns:
Eclipse Celeste CLS MY
Eclipse LY (rear tuned)
Bach ML37
B & S Challenger ii
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
