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Six Notes Articulations



 
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comebackcornet
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:47 am    Post subject: Six Notes Articulations Reply with quote

I have read some LONG discussions in this forum about whether the Six Notes exercise should be played (or were assigned) with articulations of BTT vs. TTB.

I am not looking to rehash this topic but am wondering if anyone can link to a video of the Six Notes exercise being played with a TTB articulation.

I am a bit confused at how best to use the B articulation while in the middle of the blow.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he also assigned TBB to some. I only did BTT with him, but I know Dominic Spera told me that back in the '60s Carmine gave it to him as TBB. I'm sure he had his reasons for assigning the different versions, but almost everyone I know did BTT with him.
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gstump
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was assigned TTB in 1967. I am off the horn for the spring/summer so maybe a video in the fall.

Anyway, I stop the air for approximately a 32nd of a second at mm = 60 to allow for the breath attack to do its thing.

Best of luck,

Gordon Stump
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maynard-46
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:21 pm    Post subject: six note articulations Reply with quote

I studied with Carmine for 5 years...1966-1971. He had me do T-T-B and that's what I teach my private students. I know in his Calisthenics Book it says B-B-T. I have heard that he would change certain things for certain player's needs. I was 19 when I started studying with him and had the "slowest tongue East of the Mississippi" so maybe he thought the more I used my tongue the better!!!!
BTW...when I do the 6-note exercise I leave NO space between notes...even the breath attack. Carmine said to use a CONSTANT air stream as if ur playing 2 whole notes tied together...so that's what I've done for the past 51 years!! Good luck!

Butch
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've both read the book and done the 6-note exercise. But I don't know what is being referred to as TTB and BBT. What are you referring to, please. Thanks.
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

B = breath attack
T = tongue

Unnecessary to obsess with the attacks. If you use the T attacks I think they should be very legato. I do the 6 Notes as BTT. But if you do the B's after the first attack it may articulate as a "Ha" syllable. TBT might articulate as Tah Ha Tah. I would also keep the air stream constant... no interruption. Carmine would use the analogy of the water skier needing to have the rope not relax so that the skier has a steady source of energy.

Carmine always said that the lips could find their way faster by starting with a breath attack.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you.
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gstump
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To back peddle slightly: Mr. Caruso never told me to isolate the breath attack. Since I used the 6 notes as my initial warmup I morphed into a little pause/bump in the air stream with the ha/ba attack to test how beat up my chops where from last night's show.

Here is a sound clip of me doing my Ta Ta Ha 6 notes. 6 Notes You can hear me put in a pause now and then to test my response. Probably not a Carusoesque thing to do. After 15 months off the horn the 6 notes are so imprinted in my playing that it does not sound awful. I did have to ta fairly hard to get a response.

Non-Caruso believers say they are just 6 notes but there is magic in there. Just be sure nothing moves inside the mouth and the embouchure except the tongue releasing the air. Breath thru the nose.

Best fo luck,

Gordon Stump
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those of you who were given something other than BTT, do you know what needs were being addressed? We have one vote for a slow tongue, but I'm curious about others.
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gstump
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoseLindE4 wrote:
For those of you who were given something other than BTT, do you know what needs were being addressed? We have one vote for a slow tongue, but I'm curious about others.


My sound sucked. I sucked. Maybe Mr. Caruso wanted to start off with something I was familiar with.

Best of luck,

Gordon Stump
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Last edited by gstump on Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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shofar
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I learned (I can't really call it studied, as I only took one all day lesson and then some over the ph) Caruso from John Harner, he had me doing BTT on 6 notes. At the time, early 80's, he was in Vegas and I was told he was the best Caruso teacher on the West Coast.

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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I studied with Carmine about 1968-71. I still have my copy of the six notes, written TTB for me.

As I went through the interval series, I played both seconds and thirds tongued for a week and then slurred. After that, all intervals were just slurred. However, I did witness some students being told to breath attack the initial note of the intervals. I was never instructed to do that.

Alan
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comebackcornet
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link Gstump. As I stated, my purpose is not to figure out whether to do BTT or TTB, but to figure out if I should stop the air WHEN USING the TTB articulation.

To share a little information about myself: I started doing the Six Notes when assigned by Laurie Frink shortly before her passing. I was in melt down mode and she assigned it to me as BTT. After her passing I quit playing for a few years before restarting from scratch (new embouchure). Anyway, I have done the Six Notes but never really felt that it was doing anything for me. I could do it easily without tiring and just had no sense whether it was beneficial or not. However, when I tried to work through some of the progressions Laurie made to the Six Note exercises (Flexus) I found I could not do the series from third space C up to G. Recently I have started doing the regular Six Notes exercise (G to 3rd space C) but repeating 5 times. On the last repeat I see if I can continue up all the way to top space G, which I usually can. I also actually feel warmth in the lips afterwards and feel that this exercise is now benefitting me.

Anyway, that is a long way of getting to the explanation that I do the exercise 3 times through BTT and twice TTB. Maybe many of you will feel that this is not Caruso and advise against it, but in my own personal journey to improve I think this is helping ...
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gstump
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though the 6 Notes Exercise done strictly following the Caruso Rules is a special tool, it is what it is.

6 Notes does a lot of things:

-Restricts movements.
-Establishes a more balanced repeatable embouchure.
-Can improve response
-Can be a great initial warm-up.
-Organizes and imprints muscle memory
-For comeback players or time-off-the-horn players it develops some endurance. But the endurance is fairly tame and does not really translate to high range or kick-butt endurance.

For me the most important end product of the 6 Notes is creating synchronization to imprint the muscles controlling the embouchure.
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

comebackcornet wrote:
Anyway, I have done the Six Notes but never really felt that it was doing anything for me. I could do it easily without tiring and just had no sense whether it was beneficial or not. However, when I tried to work through some of the progressions Laurie made to the Six Note exercises (Flexus) I found I could not do the series from third space C up to G. Recently I have started doing the regular Six Notes exercise (G to 3rd space C) but repeating 5 times. On the last repeat I see if I can continue up all the way to top space G, which I usually can. ...


That sounds like a lot of repeats to me. I understand the need for expansion but why not expand the whole thing and do it fewer times? I'm also having trouble seeing the benefit of TTB?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevin_soda wrote:
comebackcornet wrote:
Anyway, I have done the Six Notes but never really felt that it was doing anything for me. I could do it easily without tiring and just had no sense whether it was beneficial or not. However, when I tried to work through some of the progressions Laurie made to the Six Note exercises (Flexus) I found I could not do the series from third space C up to G. Recently I have started doing the regular Six Notes exercise (G to 3rd space C) but repeating 5 times. On the last repeat I see if I can continue up all the way to top space G, which I usually can. ...


That sounds like a lot of repeats to me. I understand the need for expansion but why not expand the whole thing and do it fewer times? I'm also having trouble seeing the benefit of TTB?


I agree that you would probably be much better off to only do one repeat on the 6 notes and then use that time to do other things...calisthenic or musical. Carmine told me that if you wanted to do the "advanced version" of his exercises you whould slow it down just a bit and change your mental subdivision of the beat to 32nd notes. Remember, these are rhythm exercises more than anything else. If your focus is on anything but refining your sense of rhythm you are missing the point and potentially in dangerous territory.
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm also having trouble seeing the benefit of TTB?


Kevin, I think we trumpet players invented "paralysis by analysis." We tend to overthink things. However, with Carmine's exercises for my students, I like to use the Nike phrase, "Just Do It."

I'm probably as bad as any, trying to understand each nuance, but that is so I can be appropriately prescriptive in my teaching. I suspect whether you begin or end with the breath attack should be determined by your lip position on your initial attacks, but that's just my speculation. Pick one and proceed with abandon. You'll like the results.

Alan
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pepperdean wrote:
I think we trumpet players invented "paralysis by analysis." We tend to overthink things. However, with Carmine's exercises for my students, I like to use the Nike phrase, "Just Do It."


I get that and I agree. So, then, why do we have this variance? BTT makes sense to me and works the way I believe is intended. Why bother with TTB or whatever else?
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I speculate (maybe not worth much) when Carmine spotted a student who needed to bring the lips forward and together, he began the Six Notes (as well as the intervals, with the breath attack. For me, I was instructed to start them all with the tongue.

Alan
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way the exercise is articulated in Musical Calisthenics For Brass is,
BTT.

My advice for anyone who hasn't been directly instructed by Carmine, himself, to do it otherwise, is to do it BTT. And with only one repeat, as given in MCFB. There's really nothing to over think. You don't have to understand it, you don't have to agree with it, just do it.
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