Neill Sanders Mouthpieces - brief history and models

[Andy Cooper]

Neill Sanders Mouthpieces - brief history and models
Neill Sanders was Principal horn in the London Symphony Orchestra, London Philharmonic Orchestra, BBC Orchestra and recorded commercially with the Beatles, and in sound tracks for the early Bond movies.

In the late 60's he developed and patented (70's) a markedly different rim for french horn mouthpieces. The rim was twice as wide with an "invert lay" - the high point of the rim was toward the outside of the mouthpiece, declining at a 5 degree angle to a pronounced bite. The purpose of the rim contour was to free the lips to vibrate more easily.

This "invert" lay mouthpiece was also produced for trumpet, trombone, baritone and tuba. These mouthpieces found success as "remedial" mouthpieces, an alternative for students with braces, and at one time were marketed specifically to marching bands.

The mouthpieces were manufactured by C W Cox & Son Ltd, Broxbourne, Hertfordshire. (They also produced Denis Wick mouthpieces until the late '90s.)

Most of the trumpet mouthpieces have a fairly tight, though not stuffy, backbore with a long #26 throat. The backbore appears to be in the Warburton 4* or Purviance range.

[All information is from the Neill Sanders Mouthpiece brochure and correspondence with Denis Wick.]

Trumpet
Model ------ ID ----- Bore ----- Depth
16T--------16mm ----- 26 ----- 0.465
16D--------16mm ----- 26 ----- 0.550
16.5T -----16.5mm --- 26 ----- 0.465
16.5S -----16.5mm --- 26 ----- 0.505
16.5M -----16.5mm --- 26 ----- 0.565
16.5D -----16.5mm --- 26 ----- 0.600
17S ------- 17mm ----- 26 ----- 0.505
17M ------- 17mm ----- 26 ----- 0.565
17D ------- 17mm ----- 26 ----- 0.600
17DA------ 17mm ----- 26 ----- 0.625
17DB------ 17mm ----- 26 ----- 0.645
17DB(L)--- 17mm ----- 24 ----- 0.645 Symphonic Backbore
17.5DB(L)- 17.5mm --- 24 ----- 0.645 Symphonic Backbore

Cornet
Model ----- ID ----- Bore ----- Depth
16D ----- 16mm ----- 25 ----- 0.625
17S ----- 17mm ----- 26 ----- 0.505
17M ----- 17mm ----- 26 ----- 0.565
17DB ---- 17mm ----- 26 ----- 0.585

Flugel
Model
Goldentone - 17mm

There were also 4 French horn models 16mm through 17.5 mm with 14 to 12 bores. 7 Trombone models 24mm to 28 mm, 4 baritone mouthpieces 26mm and 4 tuba mouthpieces 30mm to 35mm.[/i]

[Andy Cooper]

Neill Sanders - patent link
If the below link becomes "dead" and the patent picture no longer shows, search for "Sanders and patent US3728929" .

https://www.google.com/patents/US3728929

[OldKing]

Thanks for posting this.

I have a 17M that I played briefly, before I set the horn down for 30 years (July will be my one year anniversary of being a comeback player), and a Flugel Goldentone that's still in the plastic in its box. If someone can use them, shoot me an offer via PM.
_________________
For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? - 1 Cor 14:8

[Andy Cooper]

Would you benefit from a mouthpiece with an “invert lay” rim?

1. After several days off, your high register is suddenly easier but after a few days of playing, it becomes more difficult again.
2. Switching to a larger ID mouthpiece or a mouthpiece with a different rim contour improves your flexibility and high register for two or three weeks.
3. Practicing more seems to make your high register and endurance worse rather than better.
*4. With a conventional mouthpiece, if you need to rub the inside of your lip with skin toughener (benzoin and myrrh) to keep it from bleeding, then you might benefit from an "invert lay" rim . * [Sentence modified. Original caused some confusion in the posts below]
Other, conventional mouthpieces should be tried first, but the "invert lay" rim should be considered if conventional mouthpieces do not work.

Other than custom made mouthpieces, what are other alternatives to the Sanders mouthpiece?

1. The G & W Hickman rims, though a bit wider and rounder, are very, very close to the Sanders 17mm series.
https://www.gwmouthpieces.com/products/dave-hickman-signature-trumpet-mouthpieces?variant=8256551489

2. The Best Brass Eric Miyashiro mouthpiece rim (43 % rim) appears to be close to the Sanders – based on a comparison of rim contours on the old Kanstul Comparator. It is a rather small ID diameter. GR and Yamaha both have versions of the mouthpiece that may have a similar rim. Perhaps other TH'ers can add to this.

http://www.bestbrass.com/mouthpiece/old_model.html#signature_tp

http://www.grmouthpieces.com/eric-miyashiro.html


3. Some Jet-Tone rims have the high point more towards the outside – though they “fall into” the cup faster.

4. Wedge mouthpieces. The plastic versions are the only modestly priced alternative to the Sanders at this time. They are not, in my opinion a variation of an “invert lay”, but by different design, attempt to accomplish the same thing in redistributing mouthpiece pressure to free up movement of the lips.

http://www.wedgemouthpiece.com

5. The Asymmetric Trumpet Mouthpiece - not an "invert lay" mouthpiece, nor even made primarily to resolve distributing mouthpiece pressure, but the rim has about 40% more lip contact area than a conventional mouthpiece. You must, however have a 1/3 / 2/3 lip placement - 1/3 on top.

http://www.asymmetric-mouthpiece.com/design.htm


Note: Jim New is reported to have scans of the Sanders rim and Doug Meeuwsen (lipshurt) has rim molds. I'm sure other custom makers have the rim specifications.

http://james-r-new.com/

http://www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com/about.html

[trpt.hick]

My lips have never bled from using a Sanders (or GW) rim. Never heard of such a thing.

[TKSop]

[trpt.hick]

I cut my lip from a Bach rim when in high school, but it was because I did way too much high playing during a three week summer music camp. I did not have a good embouchure back then, so it was totally my fault. I later switched to a Sanders rim because it felt more comfortable. (The scar tissue was there under the outer skin for about ten years after my cut.)

I can't imagine the Sanders rim causing anyone to bleed. . . even if they have a lousy embouchure like I did.

[Andy Cooper]

[trpt.hick]

OK, I understand. At first, it seemed like you were saying that the Sanders rim could cause cuts on the lips, perhaps due to the shape of the rim. However, when the teeth are at various angles, all bets are off.

[Andy Cooper]

trp.hick

I'll re-write this and post as a new topic. If it puzzled you, others must be totally mystified.
If a Sanders rim could cause a lip cut, the only hope for the player would be to take up tuba.


Do tuba players have more than two mouthpieces?

[lipshurt]

I've been playing the sanders contour now for about a year, and i really like it, and believe its a better rim shape. Everything is better, but the idea that it protects the lips from abuse does hold water for me. I made one just out of curiosity because I new Neil Sanders (pronounced "Sonders" rhymes with "wanders"....that is very important!) and of course really liked him as he was interested in the fact that i was making mouthpieces for guys in kalamazoo while going to western Mich U. Neil was an awesome guy and a great horn player, and was fun to hang out with even though he always cut it off suddenly cuz he had places to get to. Anyway

what i liked at first was how it easy it was to buzz the piece. And then how easy it was to make a nice soft attack, and in general just come in without manipulation. I made the first one on a saturday and had a church gig the next day and it was nice to play. Then i made a "lead" version of it as that is what i need at least half the time for the work i do. It took zero time to get used to it, so i just jumped in and played a real hard week of pounding on it.

Your lips do not get nearly as beat up. Over the long haul i don't have to dedicate days of remedial repair routines (soft low or take day off) and i can play better in the morning after a late night of brutality on a salsa band. It's much more productive. I've made a few for others.

It's not something that a lot of guys want to jump in on, including myself cuz there were MANY times that Neil had me try his lead piece and it worked awesome but i did not dare to switch. Donald bullock played one though and who was better than donald bullock? Also Mr Hickman came to kalamazoo and did the clinic to end all clinics and used the sanders, even though he only mentioned it in passing. Anyway he sounded superb on a whole table full of horns. All of that had been in my head for any years. And then because of years and years of abusing chops I was def having issues jumped in. I did not expect that all the basic aspects like attack, soft playing, etc would also be better.

The Gr bergeron rim is the same idea but not the same. Its less pronounced. I have tried making variations but pretty much the original is what i like.
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[trpt.hick]

I am pretty sure Sanders' first names spelled Neill.

[lipshurt]

Yeah probably, and he would have been kind of picky with that too:)
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[snichols]

[trpt.hick]

True, I had the Sanders rim in mind, but Giddings did not want to make a direct copy of that rim. Instead, he designed something a little different, but better in my opinion.

[trickg]

[snichols]

[trpt.hick]

Trickg:

Yes, I was one of David's teachers back in his ASU days. True, he liked the Sanders mouthpiece I played. Glad it helped him!

snichols:

The Sanders 17DB ("Big Boy") has a cup very much like a Bach 1B. The 17D is about the same depth as a Bach 1C, but the Sanders cup is more "V"-shaped (similar to the Bach B cup, but not quite as deep). The Sanders 17M is about the same depth as a Bach 1D, but again, the cup is more "V"-shaped than the Bach (which is actually quite box-shaped, with an almost flat bottom to the cup). Sanders also made an 17S, which was what I used on piccolo trumpet for high things. It was also a bit "V"-shaped.

[Trumpetingbynurture]

Does anyone know if the Sanders Rim is currently available by anyone other than Giddings? I mean as a non-custom order?

[nowave]