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Slainted
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 Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:18 pm Post subject: Pressure: Yay or Nay? |
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Some pros such as Wayne Bergeron advocate the possibility of using massive amounts of pressure when playing in extreme high register (to the point of grabbing his bell and pulling it back against his lips!).
Is this hogwash? It seems counterintuitive to press that much!
John
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kevin_soda
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Where did you hear him say that? Do you have a link? I've never heard anyone advocate for more pressure.
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Pressure: Yay or Nay? |
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| Slainted wrote: | | Some pros such as Wayne Bergeron advocate the possibility of using massive amounts of pressure when playing in extreme high register (to the point of grabbing his bell and pulling it back against his lips!). |
Really? Count me as skeptical.
Are you sure it wasn't some random 10th grader at pep band?
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: Pressure: Yay or Nay? |
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| Slainted wrote: | Some pros such as Wayne Bergeron advocate the possibility of using massive amounts of pressure when playing in extreme high register (to the point of grabbing his bell and pulling it back against his lips!).
Is this hogwash? It seems counterintuitive to press that much!
John |
He usually does that demonstration in relation to when he saw the maggio(?) book for the first time. The monkey is exhibiting a pucker and with the "cushion" that is created from the pucker, he is able to use endless pressure without cessation of sound.
He is NOT advocating using massive amounts of pressure.
Ultimately pressure is dictated by the sound you want to create. If it sounds good and is easy...why does it matter how much pressure? "Excessive pressure" is usually a symptom of a deficiency somewhere in the system. |
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ljazztrm
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Players with 'jacked up' front teeth can usually use more pressure. The high point on the front teeth can form a point where a callous will form on the inside of the lip and more pressure can be applied. A lot of natural high note players have this going on. The drawback is, sometimes, for these players is that, if they ever have embouchure troubles they have to find a good chop doctor because they don't know what they're doing to have the chops they have.
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zaferis
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:56 am Post subject: |
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The clinic I recently attended with Mr Bergeron, he did talk about using a lot of pressure when he was young and as part of a demonstration, NOT advocating the use of a lot of pressure BUT, of what not to do if you want to keep playing for a long time.
The use of enough pressure to create a seal between you and the mouthpiece as long as you are supporting that pressure with muscles within your embouchure.
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dcjway
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:31 am Post subject: |
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One more. 
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TKSop
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| zaferis wrote: |
The use of enough pressure to create a seal between you and the mouthpiece as long as you are supporting that pressure with muscles within your embouchure. |
This nails it - "no pressure" is a myth, you need enough to form a seal, but more than that can be a major hindrance.
In that sense... "yay" but be careful not to overdo it. |
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tim_wolf
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Slainted,
If you happen to be an ITG member, I suggest you read the article (Science Proves Musical Myths Wrong) on this subject in the May 1998 issue (you may need the CD of past articles that came out several years ago).
I better not post it as I'm sure there would be copyright issues.
In a nutshell, the authors discovered that top professional players use far more force (pressure) than they think, even though it "looks" like they aren't.
I can't help but wonder if as we get stronger, it's not that we use less pressure, but we just don't notice it as much. |
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DaveH
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| tim_wolf wrote: | Slainted,
If you happen to be an ITG member, I suggest you read the article (Science Proves Musical Myths Wrong) on this subject in the May 1998 issue (you may need the CD of past articles that came out several years ago).
I better not post it as I'm sure there would be copyright issues.
In a nutshell, the authors discovered that top professional players use far more force (pressure) than they think, even though it "looks" like they aren't.
I can't help but wonder if as we get stronger, it's not that we use less pressure, but we just don't notice it as much. |
This idea about getting stronger in general, and therefore not noticing the pressure quite as much makes sense to me....never thought about it that way before.
Last edited by DaveH on Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:36 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Dan O'Donnell
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:48 am Post subject: |
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I used to study with Wayne and took a (2) hour lesson with Arturo. When we discussed mouthpiece pressure (obviously at different times) they both provided the identical answer to my question...
"How much mouthpiece pressure do you use?
Answers: "As much as I need."
For me...I need the amount of pressure that will help to create and maintain a good seal between my chops and mouthpiece WITHOUT trapping my chops and reducing flexibility.
I remember a Trumpet player once said...
"The high note you play is not as important as the note you play right after that high note."
I began to realize that for ME... if I use too much pressure while playing the high note; any low note immediately following that note has horrible intonation and tone quality due to my chops being trapped by my mouthpiece and "disfigured / flattened" for a short period of time.
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ATrumpetBrony
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| tim_wolf wrote: | Slainted,
I can't help but wonder if as we get stronger, it's not that we use less pressure, but we just don't notice it as much. |
Yeah. I mean, a guy who's been lifting weights a long time uses applies just as much force (pressure) on the bench as a guy who's just started lifting.. but the stronger guy just needs less effort to make it happen. Hopefully the more experienced lifter has better technique too.
Just my thoughts. . .
Trumpet playing of course can't directly be compared with a far more brute-force activity as weight lifting/training, but it's an okay comparison in this case I think. Not cleanly written, thought of it on the fly, take it with a half-grain of salt 
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Lionel
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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There doesnt seem to be 100% agreement on this subject. Apparently both Maynard and Bergeron used arm pressure more than some others. However I would bet that they kept it under a certain threshold.
Where there does exist a consensus seems that we ought avoid arm pressure which causes us to pay a price physically the next day and in rhe days afterwards.
It doesnt surprise me that either man uses a fair bit of pressure. Because each of them has a big sound. Its quite hard to peel the paint off the walls unless you blow pretty damned hard. And when you do that? You're probably gonna begin to crank the thing.
Where I have problems with arm pressure is that if I start jamming instead of allowiing my air and embouchure to do the job? Then I'm making my lip aperture too resistant to air flow. Excessive resistance in my embouchure for whatever reason will make it harder to play high notes. Resulting in even more arm pressure followed by more air resistance. A vicious cycle.
Whereas if I train my embouchure muscles to gain strength and do the job which arm pressure once did? The sky is the limit.
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Dan O'Donnell
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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I have seen several high note jockeys hold the horn with their left hand cradeling the base of the valve case. It would seem to me that it would help to remind them and minimize pressure directly in line with their MP that some people call the "left hand octave"...
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kevin_soda
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan O'Donnell wrote: | | I have seen several high note jockeys hold the horn with their left hand cradeling the base of the valve case. It would seem to me that it would help to remind them and minimize pressure directly in line with their MP that some people call the "left hand octave"... |
It seems to effect the angle of the instrument as well.
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waynardb
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:27 am Post subject: Mouthpiece pressure |
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Geez!! I have never advocated using massive amounts of pressure when playing in any register. I have grabbed the bell of my horn during masterclasses (AS A JOKE!!) to demonstrate what might be extreme pressure. I can't believe someone would not know I was joking. I even state a disclaimer before I do this. "Please don't post this on FB and say Wayne Bergeron says grab the horn by the bell and pull as hard as possible."
I would advocate to only use necessary pressure to seal the mouthpiece to the lips. If more compression is created, slightly more pressure will be needed.
Thanks,
Wayne |
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cbtj51
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece pressure |
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| waynardb wrote: | ...I would advocate to only use necessary pressure to seal the mouthpiece to the lips. If more compression is created, slightly more pressure will be needed.
Thanks,
Wayne |
Thanks for bringing light into this thread. People will sometimes hear what they want to hear no matter what is actually said! This is not only straightforward but extremely logical as well.
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kevin_soda
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:59 am Post subject: |
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The Gospel of Wayne. So it said and so it shall be. Thanks, Mr. B.
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E. Denecke
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Gotta have some tension along the way. Thats life right? If you can apply it positively by zipping the wind out of your body, you probably wont need as much mouthpiece pressure to compensate. |
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Lionel
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Pressure: Yay or Nay? |
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| Slainted wrote: | Some pros such as Wayne Bergeron advocate the possibility of using massive amounts of pressure when playing in extreme high register (to the point of grabbing his bell and pulling it back against his lips!).
Is this hogwash? It seems counterintuitive to press that much!
John |
Depends upon the individual.
Most embouchure settings will degrade in strength quickly if extreme arm pressure is used. Perhaps the teeth constrict an important blood vessel. All sorts of factors come into play.
One unfathomable factor is the quality of the vibrating surface inside the mouthpiece and nearby. While its hard to prove I am completely certain that some trumpet players are pretty much born with a more elastic quality to their upper lip surface. This not only making the upper register easier to produce & control but also increase the length of time of which it can be both used and abused.
If you doubt my words? Just compare the texture of your upper lip INSIDE your mouth with the exterior upper lip flesh on the outside.
The inner side is soft and sensitive while the outer much tougher. It is this interior membrane which pedal tone studies attempt to activate. Pooching out more lip does help some trumpet players hit high notes. These pedal tone studies dont tell you this because they're wholly unscientific but thats what they're doing.
However sooner or later arm pressure may become excessive. Both on a given night or over an extended playing tour. I call this the "Decay Of Vibrancy". The loss of circulation coupled with swollen lips resulting at first with insecurity in producing some notes. Usually those tones at the top of our register. Then later this decay increasing so that even middle and lower register tones become weak and insecure. Which reminds me...
If you havent worked on or developed your upper register much yet? Consider doing these two simple things and I'll just bet that you'll see startling and positive results,
1. Find a mouthpiece significantly shallower thsn standard but still one which you feel comfortable with.
2. Practice mostly just your lower and middle registers for one to two hours six days a week. Until you become totally fluent and can play for hoyrs with great dexterity.
You will find that your upper register will sound like steel without hardly working on it all. This because much of the reason people shy away from smaller mouthpieces is due to the trickiness of playing in the lowest register on these shallower mouthpieces. And arm pressure becomes less helpful on the really shallow ones.
Also, most trumpet players who use shallower mouthpieces will need to open up the back-bore and throat on these pieces. To get them to sound as well in the lower register as the deeper cups.
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