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Bach 3C vs Schilke 14A4a (you tube clip)


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ButchA
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Bach 3C vs Schilke 14A4a (you tube clip) Reply with quote

Normally, I play on a Bach 3C, but I also have a Schilke 14A4a that I find it too bright and brittle. I am looking for something a hair smaller than the 3C but also with a hint of brilliance, and something that won't peel the paint off the wall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8F_SBkQAzI
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Ed Hernandez
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to look at the Yamaha Shew Jazz mouthpiece. A bit smaller than a 3C, pretty inexpensive and not hard to find a used one to try on e-bay.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try the Schilke (or Yamaha) 14B4. Bach 3D could also work if you don't mind the different rim. The Reeves 43M is another option.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stick with the 3C, unless it's uncomfortable for you. PLENTY bright enough.

If your looking for a little less "bite" to the rim, try a Yamaha 14B4
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ButchA
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies! I like the Bach 3C and find it very diverse and can go from mellow to pop/rock easily. But I find that playing in the upper range causes me to tire more.

I am curious about a Bach 7C or the slightly shallower 7D. Hmmm....
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ButchA wrote:
Thanks for the replies! I like the Bach 3C and find it very diverse and can go from mellow to pop/rock easily. But I find that playing in the upper range causes me to tire more.

I am curious about a Bach 7C or the slightly shallower 7D. Hmmm....


Have you tried a Bach Artisan 3C? Nice full brilliant sound. Different cup shape than the usual 3C. I would say it's a very versatile mouthpiece, lots of projection.

Also, I second the Reeves 43M. I have one with an Artisan 3C rim threaded onto it (a near-perfect fit). Very nice sound and response.
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Croquethed
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the Curry 3M.

A little shallower than the C but the paint peeler in that series in the Z.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd second the Curry 3M, and also have a Curry DE model I like very much for lead playing type stuff. I have a Schilke 14B that works too, but the 14A4a I can't really play.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll third the recommendation for the Curry 3M. If you want just a little more edge and upper-register endurance, the 3M provides that while retaining a lot of the good sound qualities of the Curry 3C (which in my opinion, is a better 3C than the Bach).
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll third the Reeves 43 recommendation - even the 43C will yield more brightness than a 3C will, the 43M would be brighter still.
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Adam V
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try a Marcinkiewicz E3/3C. It may feel a bit resistant at first, since the backbore is a much different size and taper (narrower) than the Bach, but after a couple days of backing off, the upper register will feel much easier than a standard 3C. The sound is brighter/crisper and much more focused than a 3C.
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musicmork
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This would probably work great.....my very recent post.


http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=144010
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ButchA
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the link to that thread. Your dental issues sound like mine (but my case is a little more severe)...

{thread within a thread}
I can't remember if I mentioned it or not, but here goes: Back sometime in the 80's when I was on active duty in the USCG, and stationed up north in the New England area, a bunch of us got together after hours, off base, and played hockey. Nothing professional or even semi-pro, but just a few of us at one of local ice rinks (i.e. like Skate Nation, etc..). We joined up with others, and soon a "pickup game" was formed. Shooting righty, I always hugged the boards and played Right Wing, focusing on passing the puck to center ice for a teammate to score a goal. Anyway, all I remember is getting the puck, and skating as fast as I could up the ice, looking at my USCG buddy (center) to pass the puck to. I wasn't watching where I was going... I was skating straight ahead, but looking left... **CRASH**!!!
Yup... I went head-on into the defenseman on the other team. We both zigged when we should have zagged, as the saying goes. As we both fell to the ice, by sheer dumb luck, I landed on his hockey stick, and that's all I remember. Everything was a blur from then on... I felt pain like I never felt pain before. I was face down on the ice in blood and teeth... You guessed it, I lost all my front teeth and busted an eye tooth. They shoved a towel in my face and got me off the ice and called an ambulance to get me to a hospital and notified the USCG. They stitched me up, called an oral surgeon who scheduled me for immediate oral surgery/prosthetics, etc... and fitted me with a permanent bridge for years.
{end of thread within a thread}

Long story short, let's fast forward all these years now age 56, long been retired from the USCG. A few years ago I remember eating something very hard, when all of the sudden, "Crack!" as due to age and deterioration, the upper bridge busted right in half! I immediately went to my local dentist in town who scheduled me for oral surgery (yet again) and this time it was the end, if you know what I mean... You guessed it again... COMPLETE PERMANENT DENTURES!
I went through the procedure and got a total upper denture plate. No teeth remaining at all. No posts, no implants, nothing at all up on top. After it was all done and over with and what I had to go through, I turned away when they wanted to schedule me again for the bottoms. Nope... Sorry... Ain't going through that again!! My bottom teeth (and a crowned molar or two) are still real and still in tact, for now. Only my entire top teeth are gone and fitted with a full denture plate.

It took me quite a number of years to get back to playing trumpet and learning how to adjust my embouchure to compensate. As you can see in that video, I can clearly hit a G on the top ledge line. But the A and the Bb, I can clearly hit once or twice. Any more than that and I'll pop the denture plate, as in, you can feel the Fixodent or Super Polygrip start to loosen. Forget hitting a high C, D, or scream out a double G... Only in my dreams...

I will never play Maynard Ferguson or Bill Chase stuff. I admire the ability, talent, and screaming high tones, but, I just know in my heart, I will never be able to do it. ...and that's fine. I just want to keep on playing to best of my ability and concentrate on clear, concise, tones, with a very comfortable mouthpiece that will allow me to play higher range stuff, if I need to, and not worry about pressure and popping my denture plate.
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musicmork
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Butch,

Here's an inspirational video from the late great Wilmer Wise that I think you'd like.

https://youtu.be/aPgRH6U5bwU
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KEYBOARDS: Kurzweil PC88MX , Yamaha S-30
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musicmork
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Butch,

Here's another guy.

https://youtu.be/1dqL5RoIqqI
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KEYBOARDS: Kurzweil PC88MX , Yamaha S-30
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: Bach 3C vs Schilke 14A4a (you tube clip) Reply with quote

ButchA wrote:
Normally, I play on a Bach 3C, but I also have a Schilke 14A4a that I find it too bright and brittle. I am looking for something a hair smaller than the 3C but also with a hint of brilliance, and something that won't peel the paint off the wall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8F_SBkQAzI


Bob Reeves 43C!!!

The Bob Reeves 43C is slightly shallower than a 3C but there's a certain magic about the Reeves pieces that I have not experienced with the others mentioned here. With the 43C one can get a nice warm tone in the lower to middle registers (and even up high if that is what one wants). But at the same time, when going into the upper register, it's like there's an afterburner in the Reeves pieces that kicks in. I can play the upper register much stronger on a 43C than on a Curry 3M for example. It's almost like the 43C has an amp that goes to 11. Also, it takes less physical effort to play a high note on the 43C for me than on a Bach 3C or even a Curry 3M.

I don't mean to pick on the 3M in particular, as it is just representative of what I have found to be true with most shallower than stock mouthpieces - they just seem to make the whole range brighter (with the lower and middle register notes ending up too bright) while not really doing much to make the high notes easier. In my experience, the Reeves 43C (and to some extent the 43M though it is brighter) seem to represent the best of both worlds - a nice warm sound in the lower to middle registers with a huge, big bright sound up high.

Best wishes,

John Mohan

P.S. Here's YouTube video of me playing a range of styles in a range of registers, all on my 43C:


Link
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Bach 3C vs Schilke 14A4a (you tube clip) Reply with quote

ButchA wrote:
Normally, I play on a Bach 3C, but I also have a Schilke 14A4a that I find it too bright and brittle. I am looking for something a hair smaller than the 3C but also with a hint of brilliance, and something that won't peel the paint off the wall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8F_SBkQAzI


1. Well both mouthpieces indicate a slight lack of air support. Pardon me as I'm kind of blunt. But you seem to want advice?

Also I can produce the same kind of "hesitancy" in my own tone too. Same as from what I hear in yours. Just depends upon what kind of shape I'm in. So dont take this personally.

2. All that your Schilke 14a4a needs is a much more open back bore and throat combination. You sound much better on this piece by the way. This is because the shallower cup is essier to support. In fact in time you could go even shallower than the 14A cup and still sound fatter.

It is the back bore and throat which can give the bigness in tone quality. Without sacrificing range ans power. Most trumpet players are using mouthpieces way too deep for their own good.
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ButchA
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the great replies and links to videos! They all helped tremendously! I appreciate it a lot too. No worries about being blunt with comments - I like blunt. I can also be one of those hard headed kind of guys where you want to reach in through your computer monitor, bop me upside the head, and say... "You dumba$$, this is what you should do, this is what you need, etc.." LOL!!
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since it hasn't been said, the Schilke 14A4a is a pretty specialized piece with a shallow cup and a tight backbore. Some players do great on them but I wouldn't recommend them for most players for most playing. I'm not surprised that you're not digging it.

And as others have said, the Bach 3C is one of the shallower "C" cup mouthpieces and it's usually plenty bright/brilliant for most playing.

If you want to try a smaller ID then I'd recommend the Yamaha pieces over the Bach. You can go from a 14B4 down to an 11B4 (Bach 7C size) and the pieces feel very similar (and appreciably close the Bach 3C feel). With Bach, the 7C feels nothing like the 3C. Even the 3D doesn't feel the same as the 3C.

And although you didn't ask, the 3C sounds like it's working much better for you.
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Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ButchA wrote:
Thanks for all the great replies and links to videos! They all helped tremendously! I appreciate it a lot too. No worries about being blunt with comments - I like blunt. I can also be one of those hard headed kind of guys where you want to reach in through your computer monitor, bop me upside the head, and say... "You dumba$$, this is what you should do, this is what you need, etc.." LOL!!


Butch,

I dont remember you going for the B flat above the staff on the Schilke 14a. I just listened to you finish that lick and made my observation.

Listen to how the Schilke with its shallower cup gives your tone more command. Command is essential if you want your audience to think you're a good player. All of the greats displayed excellent command. Even those cats who arent noted for their range. Like Miles and Alpert.

One of my most helpful teachers told me,

"Lionel my boy, make your tone sound effortless. No matter how much it kills you to produce that sound".

We trumpet players are actors on a stage. The world does not know how hard we're working. Well some do. I think a few of our fellow musicians understand. Usually those who once picked up a trumpet and felt how foreign it feels.

So for most of us our goal should be to exude confidence in our sound. I choose the mouthpiece which makes my work the least physically difficult. Just to give myself the chance to always sound in control. In jazz lead playing? I use the mouthpiece which gives me all of my 3 & 1/2 octave range for as long as possible. In classical? I still use something kinda shallow but with very open back bore/throat. Maybe even a "second cup". Even in classical music I choose a mouthpiece which if needed I could still blow a dandy F above high C at will and at any time. I might never need to do this but that kind of power and command allows me the best possible high C's and D's which occasionally do occur.

It is only on exposed, middle register solos where I go into deep mouthpiece cup choices. And here I often go very deep. Such as putting a flugel horn mouthpiece on a cornet/trumpet adapter. Or just put that same flugel m/piece directly into my cornet. But only on lines which do not go above high C. But here the goal is different. Again I'm looking to exude confidence. But here the register is easy however the other technical demands may be greater. Tonguing and interval leaps are too tricky on shallow m/pieces. So I open the cup even deeper than Reynold Schilke's 22 piece. Only I go with a conical, more "french horn" style cup. The idea being to produce the most blending, sonorous sound possible.
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