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Why do I play better on an old cornet?


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jadickson
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Lou. Ironically, my trumpet is a really nice one. It is fairly new and was blueprinted by Osmun.

To answer your question, the 12A does not have a gap.

Mike may be onto something, I may just be over-blowing to try to get to the high notes. And it may be that the open cornet with no gap lets me get away with that more. Maybe I just really need to focus on not overblowing for the next few weeks of practice time.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jadickson wrote:
Thanks, Lou. Ironically, my trumpet is a really nice one. It is fairly new and was blueprinted by Osmun.

Hi Justin

Thank you very much for the clarification. Unless something has happened to your trumpet since it was blueprinted, you can at least be certain that there is nothing wrong with your trumpet.


To answer your question, the 12A does not have a gap.

Thank you very much for clarifying this.

Mike may be onto something, I may just be over-blowing to try to get to the high notes. And it may be that the open cornet with no gap lets me get away with that more.

Maybe, if your cornet truly is more open than your trumpet. I fully appreciate that the quoted bore size is larger, but as you say, the valves are noticeably misaligned, it has had some repairs, and it also has a cornet wrap and narrower diameter at the start of the leadpipe.

I've personally found when using a Bach 3C, that modern brass band-style short model cornets take less air. It is almost as if extra resistance is built because they are designed to be played with deep British-style cornet mouthpieces with large throats and open backbores. However, your Conn 12A isn't a modern brass band cornet, and I have no idea how they feel to play.

Would it be possible to get an opinion from a playing colleague/friend you trust whether your cornet is more open than your trumpet? I've personally found that this one can be very difficult. For example, I've always found the Besson Sovereign cornet stuffy with a 3C, but it is often described as free blowing. What I can never get my head around is the type of stuffiness I feel. Rather than feeling back pressure as with some student cornets, it just feels dead and unresponsive. Opening the throat and backbore improved the blow, but was this because the cornet was stuffy or is it that it was free blowing and the 27 throat was simply not allowing enough air through for it to respond. I have no idea about the physics aspect, and only concluded that I need a more open mouthpiece set-up to play the Sovereign.

If you can ascertain whether your cornet differs significantly in terms of blow resistance from your trumpet, it may help you to work out whether your trumpet requires more or less air/breath support.


Maybe I just really need to focus on not overblowing for the next few weeks of practice time.

This could be the case, or maybe it could be a case of needing to work on your breath support on trumpet.

I often use a 3C variant on my Xeno cornet. I find that I need more breath support to play in the upper register on my Xeno trumpet. Switching between the two, I'd find my cornet stuffy if I had been playing my trumpet a lot, and feel that I wasn't using sufficient breath support in the upper register on trumpet, if I had been playing cornet a lot. Whichever seemed easier depended on which I had been playing the most. I'd play my trumpet only at one rehearsal after not playing cornet for a few days, and think that it has a great open upper register, then the very next rehearsal after a few rehearsals and gigs on cornet, I'd feel that the upper register on my trumpet sucked the life out of me. The opposite would happen after playing a lot of trumpet, and I would feel that my cornet had got a sock stuck in it and the resistance was fighting back at me.

The way my band rehearsals fall, whichever one I concentrated on, there was always barely enough time to acclimatise back to the other. My latest method has been to stick to only one cornet and one trumpet, and practise them in the same practise session, warming up on cornet, then playing the same exercise/excerpt on cornet followed by trumpet. Seems to be working well, and resulting in both instruments always feeling familiar, and makes sense since I switch between trumpet and cornet in my community orchestra rehearsals and concerts depending on which instrument for which the part is scored. Additionally although my experiences with playing one for a time, suggest that my cornet requires less air, strangely enough this doesn't seem apparent when practising both in the same practise session, owing to me presumably subconsciously adjusting to the differences in each because they are both very familiar.

If I was only in a position to practise one or the other, I would practise cornet, as I personally find it easier to cope with the trumpet feeling too open than the cornet too stuffy.


Anyway this is what is working for me with my particular trumpet and cornet, and hopefully will be of some use for you.

Take Care

Lou




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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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VetPsychWars
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scipioap wrote:
VetPsychWars wrote:
These two play exactly the same.

Tom

Nice horns, Tom! I'm curious what's been your experience with this cornet?...

Vintage Buescher Cornet Model 264 Custom Built Aristocrat Duo-Cup MP & Case


No direct experience. Everyone who has bought one is astonished at how good it is and you'll have to pry it from their cold, dead hands.

That one is a complete set in terrific shape. I'd jump on it if I were you.

Tom
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1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VetPsychWars wrote:
scipioap wrote:
VetPsychWars wrote:
These two play exactly the same.

Tom

Nice horns, Tom! I'm curious what's been your experience with this cornet?...

Vintage Buescher Cornet Model 264 Custom Built Aristocrat Duo-Cup MP & Case


No direct experience. Everyone who has bought one is astonished at how good it is and you'll have to pry it from their cold, dead hands.

That one is a complete set in terrific shape. I'd jump on it if I were you.

Tom

Are you implying that these are killer horns?
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
VetPsychWars wrote:
scipioap wrote:
VetPsychWars wrote:
These two play exactly the same.

Tom

Nice horns, Tom! I'm curious what's been your experience with this cornet?...

Vintage Buescher Cornet Model 264 Custom Built Aristocrat Duo-Cup MP & Case


No direct experience. Everyone who has bought one is astonished at how good it is and you'll have to pry it from their cold, dead hands.

That one is a complete set in terrific shape. I'd jump on it if I were you.

Tom

Are you implying that these are killer horns?


Just employing a little hyperbole to stir some enthusiasm.

Then again if you have a weak heart....

Tom
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1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1
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scipioap
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VetPsychWars wrote:
scipioap wrote:
VetPsychWars wrote:
These two play exactly the same.

Tom

Nice horns, Tom! I'm curious what's been your experience with this cornet?...

Vintage Buescher Cornet Model 264 Custom Built Aristocrat Duo-Cup MP & Case


No direct experience. Everyone who has bought one is astonished at how good it is and you'll have to pry it from their cold, dead hands.

That one is a complete set in terrific shape. I'd jump on it if I were you.

Tom

Thanks, Tom. Then this one would make a pair?...

VINTAGE 1952 BUESCHER CUSTOM BUILT ARISTOCRAT MODEL 244 TRUMPET
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1963 Martin Committee #3
1962 Martin Committee Cornet #3
1961 Martin Custom Committee C
1941 Martin HC Committee #2
1945 Martin Committee #2
1942 Martin HC Committee Cornet
1941 Martin IBICO Indiana
2012 Kanstul 1525 SLB
1977 Olds CT Flugel
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brassmusician
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience the flugelhorn is easier to play than the trumpet, in the same way you describe your experience with the cornet. Easier to get around, more endurance, more forgiving to play. Something in the design. Trumpet is straight away harder on the chops in my experience.
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've found that the tighter the wrap, the easier it is to technically play but, you loose projection.
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delano
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brassmusician wrote:
In my experience the flugelhorn is easier to play than the trumpet, in the same way you describe your experience with the cornet. Easier to get around, more endurance, more forgiving to play. Something in the design. Trumpet is straight away harder on the chops in my experience.





Psssssssss
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Honkie
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone is different. Three years ago, I decided that I am a cornet player, and not a trumpet player. There should be no shame in that!
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scipioap wrote:
VetPsychWars wrote:
scipioap wrote:
VetPsychWars wrote:
These two play exactly the same.

Tom

Nice horns, Tom! I'm curious what's been your experience with this cornet?...

Vintage Buescher Cornet Model 264 Custom Built Aristocrat Duo-Cup MP & Case


No direct experience. Everyone who has bought one is astonished at how good it is and you'll have to pry it from their cold, dead hands.

That one is a complete set in terrific shape. I'd jump on it if I were you.

Tom

Thanks, Tom. Then this one would make a pair?...

VINTAGE 1952 BUESCHER CUSTOM BUILT ARISTOCRAT MODEL 244 TRUMPET


Yes, that is the corresponding trumpet.

Tom
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1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1
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jadickson
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:

...
I've personally found when using a Bach 3C, that modern brass band-style short model cornets take less air. It is almost as if extra resistance is built because they are designed to be played with deep British-style cornet mouthpieces with large throats and open backbores. However, your Conn 12A isn't a modern brass band cornet, and I have no idea how they feel to play.
...


Yeah I found this out the hard way. Last year I had Roy Lawler build me a new shepherd's crook cornet, because the sound I heard on recordings of this instrument was unbelievable. But when it finally got here, it was very difficult to play. I could not get much dynamic contrast, high notes were hard to play, etc. I tried deeper mouthpieces, as well as a 3C, but I guess I just wasn't doing it right. Sold that horn for $1000 less than I paid for it. Ouch.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jadickson wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:

...
I've personally found when using a Bach 3C, that modern brass band-style short model cornets take less air. It is almost as if extra resistance is built because they are designed to be played with deep British-style cornet mouthpieces with large throats and open backbores. However, your Conn 12A isn't a modern brass band cornet, and I have no idea how they feel to play.
...


Yeah I found this out the hard way. Last year I had Roy Lawler build me a new shepherd's crook cornet, because the sound I heard on recordings of this instrument was unbelievable. But when it finally got here, it was very difficult to play. I could not get much dynamic contrast, high notes were hard to play, etc. I tried deeper mouthpieces, as well as a 3C, but I guess I just wasn't doing it right. Sold that horn for $1000 less than I paid for it. Ouch.


Hi Justin

That is a shame, and I'm very sorry to hear this. Maybe it is me, but I personally feel that there is more variation between different makes/models of short model cornets than with trumpets. I have my preferences with trumpets, but could probably to some extent happily play any well made Bb. With short model cornets, I really have my likes and dislikes, and they seem so finicky with mouthpieces also. I've never for example really liked the Sovereign with any mouthpiece other than a Denis Wick. It has taken me years to ascertain which Brass band orientated short model cornets I like, and I have concluded that my preference from the ones I have tried, is the Xeno/Maestro and probably the Neo which I am yet to try.

Take Care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Flugel52
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vintage Buescher Cornet Model 264 Custom Built Aristocrat Duo-Cup MP & Case[/quote]

Hi scipioap,

I'm the winner of the cornet you mention. I couldn't believe that I was the only bidder. The horn is scheduled to be delivered today. I'll post my impressions when I've had a chance to play it a bit. I'm watching intently for the mailman right now!

Steve
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Flugel52
1965 HN White King Silver Flair
1971 KMI King Silver Flair
1962 Olds Super
1983 King Flair 2007 AT
2008 Kanstul 1502
2013 Kanstul 990
1947 Martin Committee
1975 Yamaha YFH 631 Flugel
1989 Burbank picc (short model)
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scipioap
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was a nice original Conn 12A...and from my alma mater to boot!

Vintage 1948 C.G. Conn Elkhart 12A Coprion Bell Cornet + Case...from Vanderbilt
_________________
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1962 Martin Committee Cornet #3
1961 Martin Custom Committee C
1941 Martin HC Committee #2
1945 Martin Committee #2
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connicalman
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could it be that the sound you have in your head, in your imagination, is matched by what YOU hear from behind the cornet? That is just one of many ways to describe 'better', and is why I like my 1922 80A*.

That old gal takes a long warmup to come up to pitch, and in a cold room (community band) with any long break takes too much work to hold true. So I please my own self by playing that horn in the too-warm sub-basement at work in winter, and upstairs under the roof at home in summer.

A second story. Friends have said: "I liked your part in that song", but mostly (and close to only) when I'm on a 77B Connquest that needs Herman's 3. Even my teacher said this! Go figure.

Point being, maybe it is that me and semi-worn pistons are sympatico. Or maybe Conns rock. Ultimately, acoustics are really PSYCHO-acoustics, as Bose, B&O, and other have proved.

Get a friend or two to listen , possibly play, and help you A/B.
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kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστερρισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A...
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