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Grüvhed New Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2015 Posts: 2 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:43 am Post subject: Why are trumpets seen as "better" than cornets or |
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Just curious if anyone knows how trumpets gained eminence in popular culture over other brass instruments.
We all know Miles Davis, Chet Baker, etc, but other than Chuck Mangione I'm not sure if the darker brass instruments were as well represented?
Why do most laypeople recognise trumpets but scratch their heads when they see a cornet?
What made Louis Armstrong first pick up that trumpet over a euphonium?
And somehow I doubt www.tubaherald.com has as many users.
Just curious what your thoughts were. |
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Richard A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 722 Location: Rhode Island, USA
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:35 am Post subject: Trumpets & Cornets |
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IMHO, football is at the root of the trumpets ascendance.
I grew up in Texas in the mid 1960's. As I recall, good band music was normally scored for cornets, and sometimes cornets and trumpets.
High School football is a big deal in Texas, and that ensured the band was carried along by the football program. It is not that the football fans were music fans, but they did want a good halftime show.
Trumpets, I think, sound better in a football halftime show played on the field.
And the cool big band players played trumpets.
I'm sure there are other opinions. _________________ Richard Ashmore
I am a Mechanical Engineer and have many years of Social Distancing experience. |
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PH Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 5860 Location: New Albany, Indiana
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:36 am Post subject: |
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Traditionally (and this is a gross generalization), trumpets are associated with the orchestral tradition and cornets come from the band tradition (military bands, brass bands...). Right away, there is a traditional status thing about the orchestral "art music" tradition versus the "functional music" tradition of military bands.
Add to this, the influence of American commercial and jazz music. Early jazz and dixieland grew out of the military and marching band traditions of New Orleans and the southern US post-Civil War. Therefore, early jazz in New Orleans and it's diaspora usually used cornets. On the other hand, American vaudeville and musical theater grew from the tradition of orchestras in the pit for ballet, opera, operetta, etc. So in the north and northeast (i.e. New York and it's environs) trumpets were king. It is from this tradition that most American popular music grew.
Louis Armstrong played cornet as a kid growing up in New Orleans. He played cornet when he played with his mentor, Joe "King" Oliver after they both moved from NOLA to Chicago. However, when Armstrong moved to New York circa 1924 to join Fletcher Henderson's Orchestra he found most of the section played trumpets, rather than the cornet he knew among his New Orleans cohort. In his words, the cornet looked "stubby" and "less virile." So, he switched to trumpet. You can see this transition to trumpet documented during the course of his recordings leading the Hot Five and Hot Seven.
In America, the cornet was almost totally invisible outside of neo-traditionalist dixieland players until the growth of the American Brass Band movement in the later part of the 20th century. Now the cornet seems to be a bigger deal in the US. It never left in the UK, Europe, etc., but it was always sort of isolated in brass bands and dixieland. _________________ Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:59 am Post subject: Re: Why are trumpets seen as "better" than cornets |
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Grüvhed wrote: | Why do most laypeople recognise trumpets but scratch their heads when they see a cornet? |
I have never experienced this. I think most people see a cornet and think it is a trumpet.
Richard A wrote: | IMHO, football is at the root of the trumpets ascendance. |
While this might be true in Texas, I really don't think there is any correlation in the other states of the union. |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:09 am Post subject: |
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To answer the question directly:
"Why are trumpets seen as "better" than cornets"
In a word: ignorance
Most educated players know that they're both the right tools for certain jobs.
At any rate, since trumpet designs over time became more cornet-like (sans wrap) anyway, it's simple a case of which holds the key to the desired tone and projection... neither is inherently superior, they both have their place. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:35 am Post subject: |
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I can only speak from my own parochial view, but at the time I came up in the 50s, into the 60s, it was simple. Cornets were used in "old" music and the trumpet used in "new" music. Therefore, the cornet was passé. So you got a trumpet, simple. (And I started on cornet.)
Regarding marching band and the trumpet, I think it's regional. When I was a kid in Hawai'i, the emphasis was on concertizing, certainly not on marching. No cornet-trumpet correlation here. I was amazed when I got to North Texas and saw the emphasis, almost "fanaticism", with MB. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:44 am Post subject: |
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A wind ensemble part I played just this past spring clearly states,
"Symphony For Wind Ensemble, Ralph Vaughan Williams"
"First B flat CORNET"!
But as tends to happen the band director who thinks he knows everything?.. Wants to hear me play the piece on Trumpet.
Wrong! Vaughan Williams was to my ears among the finest composers of legit band music coming out of the early and middle of the 20th century. I have complete confidence in Williams' judgment. If he really wanted a trumpet? He'd have labeled the chart,
"First B flat Trumpet"
but he didnt. Dammit! I'm gonna play this chart on cornet. Let the music director be damned. To my ears? The chart truly needs the cornet. I stick my deepest mouthpiece in the shank. A flugel horn mouthpiece in fact. Unlike most of my trumpet playing? I use really deep mouthpieces on cornet. They work great. In some ways I prefer cornet over the flugel. As the flugel doesnt slot the upper register well. It sounds fine but feels sluggish all up and down the registers.
My cornet? Its just an old Conn Director but it sounds beautiful! The huge mouthpiece which I only rarely use works swell in this cornet. Just means I must push the mouthpiece in almost flush. In fact on some outdoor settings on cooler days? I may not be able to push in far enough. In this case? I must use a traditional cornet mouthpiece.
The director finally relents and stopped giving me a hard time. After all, it truly is written for Cornet!!
And is supposed to be played on cornet. To use the trumpet? May as well switch over to English horn. Just doesnt fit. Feels wrong. Like nails scrapping the blackboard. A part of me really wanted to write him a stupid letter saying,
"Dr Director,
The Ralph Vaughan-Williams part says
'For B flat Cornet'. In fact all three parts are for,
Cornet's I, II, & III. In fact there aren't even any of those typical utility parts customarily written for extra parts and labeled. Also? No you do not know as much about trumpet as I do. Nor have you made your living at it either. Not such as I have and often do...
Sincerely, Lion
PS: I play higher than you do and that's why I stayed with the horn. Not copping out and becoming a band director"
But I'm not that cruel. The statement would be true but unnecessary lol. Like the man said,
"He who can? Does!"
"He who can not? Teaches" _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:39 am Post subject: |
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There is s local brass band here that I tried out for. They don't consider the Conn Director a true cornet. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:46 am Post subject: |
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Regarding cornets on cornet parts, some years back, I bought cornets for the trumpet section and asked them to use them on parts marked Cornet.
At first there was some skepticism (and grumbling) but after a while I started getting compliments on the cornet section sound. Made a difference. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Mon May 14, 2018 8:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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1jazzyalex Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jun 2016 Posts: 569 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | There is s local brass band here that I tried out for. They don't consider the Conn Director a true cornet. |
Is that one of those trumpety-looking ones? _________________ Yamaha 8335LA with Blessing 3C, 5C, Schilke 11A4A |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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1jazzyalex wrote: | LittleRusty wrote: | There is s local brass band here that I tried out for. They don't consider the Conn Director a true cornet. |
Is that one of those trumpety-looking ones? |
Nope. The one I have is the traditional wrap, not trumpet, nor shepherds crook. (Maybe shepherds crook is the traditional, but you get my meaning) |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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I read somewhere that Herbert L. Clarke at least once upon a time looked down his nose at trumpet, thought they they were only fit for "jass". Apparently he didn't think much of jazz either. Don't know if he ever changed his mind on the subject. Doc started out on cornet winning contests. I saw an interview where he said his childhood cornet is the one instrument he'll never sell. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Grüvhed New Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2015 Posts: 2 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies guys! Definitely been learning a lot.
I started out on bass, and had people asking what kind of guitar I was playing.
And I'm sure people who play violas have the same experiences regarding violins.
Do you think it had to do with register?
I wonder if high register instruments (trumpet, guitar, violin, etc.) are seen as better for soloing?
I just discovered the joy of flugelhorn, and always wondered why I started on a trumpet, trying to get a flugel sound. |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:49 am Post subject: |
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The way that a trumpet is rolled makes it more noticeable in the hands of the instrumentalist. The instrument appears longer and larger than the cornet. Even though both use the same amount of material during construction. More chance for it to flash light back to those sitting in the seats. Regardless what anyone says the average member of an audience "hears" much better with his eyes than he does with his ears.
So trumpet players tend to be both noticed and listened to. Both by their audience and their fellows in the ensemble. We know this is true both by our observations and the fact that trumpet players have become bandleaders more often than their non trumpet playing peers.
Those are your main considerations. But from the cornetist's standpoint the trumpet became standardized sooner than did the cornet. A trumpet of today is not substantially different in tone or usage today than it was in 1925. Not so for the cornet.
Over the course of it's use in music the cornet has gone from being nearly as mellow as the flugel horn to its brighter state today. And done this switch several times. This factor may have led to the cornet being used more often as a novelty. Not as the mainstay of the ensemble.
And when the upper register became popularized? It was the trumpet which projected the tone louder and clearer for the high notes. Certainly you can use a cornet on the lead part but you'll work harder. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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It's certainly true that some (most?) people hear with their eyes, and this can be borne out by their not really knowing the difference between cornets and trumpets, but there's also something to be said about the intangible having a more subtile, yet effective, effect.
Although the average listener may have not been able to discern the difference between horns, they might have a general feeling that "things" are just warmer. That is what happened with my band mentioned above.
As Lionel alluded to, there is a difference between many of today's cornets and those of yesterday, so what I'm talking about depends also on the type of cornets used. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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There's an interesting book, The Trumpet, by Edward Tarr, that tells the trumpet story, which is kind of long and convoluted. I won't go into all of that (read the book--it's great!), other than to mention that the modern trumpet is actually a recent design that borrows heavily from modern cornet design principles. Now they're close cousins. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1474 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:12 am Post subject: Re: Why are trumpets seen as "better" than cornets |
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Grüvhed wrote: | Just curious if anyone knows how trumpets gained eminence in popular culture over other brass instruments.
We all know Miles Davis, Chet Baker, etc, but other than Chuck Mangione I'm not sure if the darker brass instruments were as well represented?
Why do most laypeople recognise trumpets but scratch their heads when they see a cornet?
What made Louis Armstrong first pick up that trumpet over a euphonium?
And somehow I doubt www.tubaherald.com has as many users.
Just curious what your thoughts were. |
When I grew up, in the middle to late fifties, in Sweden, New Orleans/Dixieland music was very popular, hence the cornet. Slowly then over the years this music went out of demand (still very popular in Denmark) and big bands (I myself played in one of the first amateur swingbands round late sixties, beginning seventies) began to dominate the scene. Of course they had a trumpet-section, so this horn became "highest fashion". And with that the admiration of trumpet players, new ones, here in Sweden the guys in Harry Arnolds Radio Band (Quincy was here and collaborated), as well as older bands. The "Atomic" Basie record was much admired, phenomenal section, not to mention Ted Heath´s "Swing is King" records, incredible section.
Thus one might say it became sort of a trend to fancy trumpets, still on that road. Today I think the cornet tradition is alive and kicking in our Brass Bands, quite a vigorous movement.
So I would say never a contest between what horn is the best but instead an outcome of the "Zeitgeist"! _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9372 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:01 am Post subject: |
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I've played in a couple wind bands where everyone played the cornet parts on cornets (with deeper cornet mouthpieces) and the trumpet parts on trumpets. It's pretty nice to hear the difference, just like the composer intended. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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jsample New Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2016 Posts: 9 Location: Walla Walla Washington
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Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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For me it was a matter of what my future college band teacher liked best because my dad wanted to prep me for college. My dad was my band teacher from grade 2 through 9 and he was good friends with the college band and brass choir professor.
So it was cornet for me before I was old enough to decide for myself. I got used to having the shorter instrument and the trumpet was always too long. I had band teachers tell me I could make my Bach Strad cornet sound more like a trumpet than the trumpet players and have also been told I make a trumpet sound like a cornet. Sound confusing. It was! lol _________________ 1975 Bach Strad 37a Cornet
2016 Smith Watkins Soloist Cornet
Martin Handcraft passed down from Dad |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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To the original question, and to go off of what Pat already wrote, I believe it's the commercial influence (and for this I'll add small jazz to commercial) that caused the trumpet to "win out" over cornets. Harry James played the trumpet (if you want to go that far back, and you can go back much further...), Al Hirt played the trumpet, Mendez played trumpet, Herb and TJB used trumpets, Doc and the Tonight Show orch played front and center on trumpets, etc., etc. Isn't that what any sensible kid would want to do? Emulate the "stars" of the day? (You have to go way back to find a real, live cornetist with those kinds of creds that would appeal to kids and aspiring musicians.)
I grew up in a very music conscious community where everyone still started on cornets just because, but by the time we hit HS in the late 1960s, even we chose to buy a pro model trumpet, because that's what anyone who was anything was playing. I own quite a few nice cornets. Do I play them much? Nope. Not even when the orch parts say "Pistons". I use the rotary horn much more... Good luck. |
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