Schilke 14 A4(a)

Seymor B Fudd · Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:42 am Post subject: Schilke 14 A4(a)

From many posts I´ve got the impression that this mouthpiece is considered somewhat "difficult". As I own both variants myself I´ve found out the hard way that I just can´t use them. But never really understood why. The alfa angle is high - that much I gathered -but are there any other pecularities??
Just out of pure curiosity it would be nice to know your thoughts - maybe something to learn from discussing it??
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Lionel · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783

Seymor B Fudd · Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:47 am Post subject: Re: Schilke 14 A4(a)

Vin DiBona · Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:09 am Post subject:

Some years back, I had a conversation with the man the mouthpiece was designed for, Forrest Buchtell.
He told me it was designed for one thing - for him to play loud above the staff for hours and it wasn't designed for everybody. Most cannot play it.
You've got to keep your upper lip from bottoming and most amateurs simply don't have the chops to do so.
Over the years, Schilke has made subtle changes so more players may be able to make use of it. My 14A4a is at least 47 years old and is very different from new ones. I once could play it fairly well, but now I keep it as a memory of the past. Same with the old Schilke 19 I have.
R. Tomasek

Seymor B Fudd · Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:56 am Post subject:

John Mohan · Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:20 am Post subject:

Concerning what Lionel wrote, the 14A has a different (narrower, more rounded) rim than the 14A4A. If one wants the rim and cup of the 14A4a but with a larger (normal size) backbore, the mouthpiece to order is the 14A4 which has the wider 4 rim that the 14A4A has (but comes with a larger, normal size backbore).

Schilke mouthpiece nomenclature using the 14A4A as an example:
14: Cup diameter
A: Cup Depth (the C cup is the normal depth and is usually is not mentioned in the model designation if the mouthpiece has this stock cup depth)
4: Non-stock (wider) rim (the 3 is Schilke's stock rim and if that rim is on a mouthpiece, the number normally is omitted)
A: Ridiculously tight backbore (the C backbore is the normal size and again, it us usually not mention in the model designation if it is the one on a certain mouthpiece).

I bought my first 14A4A new in about 1977. I actually could play it reasonably well (in the mind and ears of a 16 year old anyway - in reality I had a pretty harsh sound with it). When I was first in contact with Claude Gordon and he asked me what mouthpiece I played on, I told him, "A Schilke 14A4A." In his gruff Montana voice, he replied, "I want you to take that mouthpiece in your back yard and bury it!" In hindsight, it would have probably been a good idea (who was to know that something called eBay would eventually come along).

I followed Claude's advice (figuratively) and went back to normal mouthpieces (Schilke 14, Bach 1-1/2C, eventually a custom made slightly shallower version of a 1-1/2C) and I think that, along with studying with Claude share the main responsibilities for my having a successful playing career.

Around 12 years ago I made a second safari to the land of high alpha angles and bought two Schilke mouthpieces, a 14A4A and a 14A4. I figured the 14A4 would probably work better for me given that I have always played mouthpieces that tend to have larger throats and backbores. I was wrong. While neither mouthpiece worked out, my lips bottomed out in the cup of the 14A4 much easier than the 14A4A even though the cups were identical. Clearly, the more open backbore was the culprit. Basically, with the 14A4A I could get about 3 glorious minutes of the loudest High C through High F notes I've ever played - and then PFFFFFFFFF (airballs). Also, my top notes (at the time G through about Double High D became unobtainium. With the 14A4 the glory was cut to about 30 seconds. Hopefully these mouthpieces are not ruining the playing and potential careers of those I sold them to through eBay.

YMMV, but I doubt it will.

Cheers,

John Mohan
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Seymor B Fudd · Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:14 am Post subject:

John Mohan · Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:37 am Post subject:

Note that thought they share the same cup diameter number size, for all intents and purposes the Schilke 14 is bigger in diameter than the 14A4A (due in large part to the alpha angle difference). The Schilke 14 is actually Schilke's version of a Bach 1-1/2C.

https://s25.postimg.org/lvbz16jin/Schilke_14_red_vs_14_A4_A_green.jpg
Schilke 14 (red) vs 14A4A (green)

https://s25.postimg.org/5yd74gr4f/Schilke_14_red_vs_Bach_1.5_C_green.jpg
Schilke 14 (red) vs Bach 1.5C (green)

Seymor B Fudd · Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:49 am Post subject:

TKSop · Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:30 am Post subject:

As we're on the topic of "alpha angles" of common pieces... there's a chap that's written up a page where he calculates the alpha angles from the comparator, which you can find: here.

There are a couple of disclaimers to that...
1) The alpha's are calculated for only for the specific scans - if the scan differs from your example of the mouthpiece, the alpha written on that page won't be for your mouthpiece.
2) Before being aware of that page, I attempted to calculate a few myself and the numbers I got were the same as his... so either we're both reading the GR site correctly to get that, or neither of us are.

As you'll see - based on the scan Kanstul has, he calculated the 14a4 to have a 27 degree alpha angle.... which is really very high.

Anyway, whilst we're on the topic of correcting Lionel's misinformation... the 28 he refers to wouldn't be the backbore (which in the 14a4a the backbore is the 2nd letter, so it's the "a" backbore) but even if he'd correctly written "throat" (which 28 could refer to), the Schilke 14a4 series (14a4a, 14a4, 14a4x) are all listed as 27 throats.

Seymor B Fudd · Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:27 am Post subject:

Louie2802 · New Member Joined: 23 Dec 2014 Posts: 6

From my experience I found the 14a4a and easier blow than some of the other lead pieces such as the Narcinkiewicz Shew.

Brad361 · Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:55 am Post subject:

Everyone is of course different, but back in 1973, before I really knew anything about alpha angles, throats and backbores (sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing?), I tried one for lead in my college jazz band, in part because my "legit" mpce was a Schilke 15. Forest Buchtel Sr. was a professor at my college, and "Larry" (which is what Sr. called Jr.) would stop by the school on occasion, though I don't recall him discussing the 14a4a.
But I thought hey, a 14a4a is just a shallower 15, right? (Not). It worked well for me, for both jazz band and wedding band gigs, and 44 years later I still can use it, though I prefer a GR these days.

Just another example of one size certainly not fitting all.....which is what I wish some (I did say SOME!) band directors would realize when they decree that every kid needs to use a Bach 3C, all making that switch as a group at the same time.🙄

Brad
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