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supporting downward, outward, or inward


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w00005414
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:14 am    Post subject: supporting downward, outward, or inward Reply with quote

Hi all,

I've been playing a looooong time and I can get around the horn with almost any setup.... which is a blessing and a curse.

Up until recently I supported by pulling inward with my gut. I've started supporting kinda outward and downward and it seems to create a more steady level of support. One side benefit is I've not gotten heartburn while supporting this way.

With pulling inward I could get away without taking in a lot of air, with supporting outward/downward I've noticed I need to take a pretty full breath.

How do you support and why?

Thx
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure what you mean. When we breath in, the ribs expand and the air goes into our lungs. When we blow, the main muscles of expiration are the internal intercostals (the muscles in between and on the inside of the ribs), particularly the portion of the intercostal muscles in the back area (though if one lets their chest sink into a position of poor posture as they blow, the posterior internal intercostals get left out of the equation and a lot of potential blowing strength is lost). The abdominal muscles (rectus abdominis), internal oblique muscles and a few others assist, but blowing is mainly done with the internal intercostals.

Here's a video from my Anatomy and Physiology class that makes a good illustration of forced expiration:


Link


As one blows, the abdomen will naturally go in a bit as the rectus abdominis muscles assist. Any attempts to "push out" the abdomen while blowing are contrary to the natural movement and will only inhibit blowing strength and efficiency. Imagine expecting a balloon to get bigger as the air blows out of it - nature just doesn't work that way.

Again, I'm not sure what you mean - perhaps you are referring to what you do as you take air in.

Concerning proper breathing while playing, it's really very simple. If one keeps their chest up in a position of good posture (not tense, but relaxed) and fills up with air (again, staying relaxed while full) and then blows while maintaining the position of good posture (not letting the chest sink down), all the available muscles will be utilized.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I am supporting for upper register playing I breath low and flex my mid section like I am going to take a punch. I think energy not air. The energy needed for any particular register or passage is created by how intense the flex gets. The energy or flex supports the exhale which supports the amount of compression I may need to create. If I need to use oral compression, in other words a very focused airstream in my oral cavity for upper the register, this will create the need for more body compression. Some simply call this compression, I think energy. I like to be as relaxed as possible when playing but my mid section is always flexed to some degree and can be energized on demand. If I had to describe it, it would be in and up. In short it is like being constipated but you need to poop up!

Best, Jon
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w00005414
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys. I think I may have figured it out.

1. Originally I was just bringing in my stomach using my abs and relaxing my gut but that inward motion didn't feel like enough to keep the air compressed

2. Over the past 2 weeks I've been experimenting pushing the gut out, almost like I was trying to bust my belt and relaxing my abs. I felt like the air was more evenly compressed but larger intervals were a tougher get and I felt a little nervous pushing outward (don't want to get a hernia).

3. I just tried a combination of pushing out with the gut but pulling in with the ab muscles at the same time and I think the two coming together is the right balance. I imagine this is the "flexing like you are going to get punched in the gut" feeling that Jon mentioned in his reply.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going to jump sideways and pose a few questions. I know answering a question with questions is not generally helpful but here goes.

Preamble

Within the chest cavity reside the oesophagus the lungs and the heart.
Below the lungs is the diaphragm, and the oesophagus (the tube that takes the food to the stomach) penetrates the diaphragm through a small hole.

The stomach is immediately below the diaphragm.

The liver stomach guts and most of the organs reside below the diaphragm.

Heartburn is usually the presence of stomach acid in the oesophagus. The oesophagus is not supposed to have stomach acid in it.

Questions

How many members suffer heartburn during playing.

Is heartburn in this case caused by crushing the stomach in an attempt to push the air out of the lungs by crushing the intestines liver and stomach upward against the diaphragm, and resulting in a collapsing of the stomach under pressure and the ejection of stomach acid upwards into the oesophagus results.

Is the regular presence of stomach acid in the oesophagus harmful and therefore is a form of air support that causes this condition to occur also harmful.

Would any members care to comment as this is beyond my abilities to answer reliably.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all due respect to the fine players who advocate activating certain muscle groups to breathe (there's no doubt some who teach this play exceptionally and rufflicks has one of my favorite youtube channels), I've personally never found that approach healthy for tone production for myself or my students. Some of this can depend on the musical needs and goals of the player.

I think the best teaching on breathing is in Kristian Steenstrup's Teaching Brass (https://www.amazon.com/Teaching-Brass-Kristian-Steenstrup/dp/8798839330).

The goal is to move air. The muscles involved in breathing aren't very good at giving feedback as to whether they're actually doing this. They lie to you and tell you that they're moving air even if they aren't. Without this important feedback, our control of specific muscles or groups is left flailing. We think we're activating breathing muscles but can't really tell if we're moving air (the actual goal). We end up confused and expanding while hoping we're really breathing - and never actually knowing how well we're moving air.

By focusing on a resonant sounding inhalation and moving air (the actual goal) during exhalation, all of the correct muscles can be engaged without wading into the minutia of controlling specific muscles. All of the various Jacobs breathing devices do a pretty good job of telling you if you're moving air (the actual goal), but blowing on a pinwheel or a piece of paper and making them move serves about the same purpose. Trying to engage specific muscles can introduce unneeded tension into the breath, limit the movement of air, and kill the sound.

Set up goals for your movement of air and let your body accommodate them.

As Jacobs said, breathe to expand rather than expand to breathe.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That kind of conscious manipulation of your lower abdomen only results in isometric tension. You're looking at a good recipe for hernia.

Place a soccer ball between your knees and squeeze the ball GENTLY and play. This will activate what you need without the undue tension.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
That kind of conscious manipulation of your lower abdomen only results in isometric tension. You're looking at a good recipe for hernia.


Exactly.

The idea of tensing opposing muscle groups to efficiently blow air is without merit. I think what is really happening (if a player is playing correctly) is the player who thinks he's doing this and it is helpful feels the muscle tension of the muscles of expiration as they play and they think they are creating isometric tension - they are just misinterpreting what their respiratory muscles are actually doing.

For those who are truly purposefully creating isometric tension between the antagonistic muscles of inspiration and expiration while trying to blow, that is as senseless as purposely tensing up both the bicep and triceps muscles while attempting to do pull-ups (or for that matter, pushups).

Concerning what you wrote about having a soccer ball between the knees to create some kind of baseline tension Billy, I see no need for that. Any and all required tension in the involved muscles (the blowing muscles) will happen on its own. There's no reason to be tensing uninvolved muscles of the body. If they are not related to respiration, it still a waste of energy to tense them. And if they are part of the muscle groups antagonistic to blowing (aka the muscles of inspiration), as previously describing, tensing them while blowing only decreases the output, likely significantly.

Just stand or sit in a position of good posture, take a full, relaxed breath and blow while maintaining that good posture. It's that simple.

Sincerely,

John Mohan
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The goal is to move air.


The goal is to make music.

The exhalation action creates air pressure. The player controls that action depending on the loudness of tone desired. The tone provides the correct feedback for the player to adjust the exhalation action.

The air flow (movement) of the air will depend on the total resistance of the system when a tone is played, air flow is NEVER a primary goal or concern.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 of what John Mohan wrote (very well, I might add)

Think of an athlete, one would never tell a baseball pitcher to flex/set a particular muscle or muscle group while throwing the ball. Nor would you have a golfer focus on the flex of the glutes while swinging. Very obvious that the outcome would be less than optimal and most likely lead to some injury.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<Concerning what you wrote about having a soccer ball between the knees to create some kind of baseline tension Billy, I see no need for that.>

It has worked very well with many students for many years.

It's not about tension. It's about be relaxed-ready.
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Dave CCM/SSO
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, simply flowing a stream of wind straight forward through the instrument while listening is the best way to approach breathing.

Breathing is just about the most natural thing that we do as human beings. We must allow ourselves to let the amount and speed of the wind change naturally as the playing demands change.

Keep it simple. Just listen.

Have fun!

Dave
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Normal and relaxed ... when practicing range "The Wedge."
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure exactly how my muscles are engaging this is why I think energy. Sadly with L5 and S1 issues I was told strengthen my core. So I ate a bunch and made it bigger. This gave me a nice tone chamber! I have never given myself a hernia and I don’t think about air I think about support. What am I supporting? Sound, tone and volume. I am also supporting compression. I engage the energy that I need for the job at hand. I am certainly not flexing as if I am lifting weights. I suppose if you create tension in the core and miss direct the energy things could go wrong. A strong core should not create problems but help us avoid injuries and help protect our inner organs. My upper body becomes engaged but shoulders and arms relaxed. I breath deep or low and don't over fill I think support and don’t over analyze.

This is me trying to show that it does not have to be that difficult to play in the upper register. (You don't need to thrust of contort.)


Link


Best, Jon
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This gave me a nice tone chamber!


The instrument is the "tone chamber". The body provides the air pressure. The embouchure creates the tone.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going with billyb and the soccer ball in this case. Yes, breathing in and of itself is a natural act we are all born with, often with a slap on the butt. Once a person has been playing trumpet, or other wind instruments for a while, however, many of us develop tendencies and habits that do interfere with each other and can lead to a place where what we think we are doing is actually not what we are doing. Many people end up in this sort of whirlpool and never get out- thinking they're breathing deeply, or from the abs, or relaxed, or blowing with energy, or a thousand other things that can run through someone's mind who is having a hell of a bad time. It's one thing for someone who is causing along well to talk relaxation, natural body functions, etc. but it's quite another thing for someone who is often getting more frustrated by each daily practice session and nearing the point of just bagging the entire thing. If nothing else, the soccer ball may free up some of the more negative portions of the mind that have become habit, and provide a way to grab onto something else and make some positive changes. If you have ever worked with frustrated students or gone through any of this yourself, you'd understand. If not, I hope you never have to. Good luck.
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah

This is an old joke amungst my brass family. When you put on wieght you justify it as being a tone chamber that helps your sound. When having pizza and beer you proudly proclaim you are working on your tone chamber.

Best, Jon
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig,

Bill Adam told the story of the two women talking.
"What do you mean telling people my husband has a wart on his Johnson?"

"I didn't say that; I said it just felt like it"
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MrOlds
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian,

I was fortunate to hear Bill Adam speak at an ITG conference years ago. He talked briefly about energized air and the "announcer voice".

The short description is that we should play with an energized (supported) airstream similar to a radio or tv announcer.

Try reciting Mary Had a Little Lamb in your normal everyday voice. Then say it like the radio guy advertising the Monster Truck Jam at the local fairgrounds.

You did something different with the air. Chances are it wasn't all that strenuous or muscular. But it was supported and energized.

Now the trick is to play with your "announcer voice".

Regards,
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: supporting downward, outward, or inward Reply with quote

w00005414 wrote:
Hi all,

I've been playing a looooong time and I can get around the horn with almost any setup.... which is a blessing and a curse.

Up until recently I supported by pulling inward with my gut. I've started supporting kinda outward and downward and it seems to create a more steady level of support. One side benefit is I've not gotten heartburn while supporting this way.

With pulling inward I could get away without taking in a lot of air, with supporting outward/downward I've noticed I need to take a pretty full breath.

How do you support and why?

Thx


Never actively think of supporting downwards or outwards. That's dangerous territory. Think about it, when you do that, you're pushing your guts up against your abdominal wall and your pelvic floor, which are both flaccid. You're relying on their elasticity to hold everything in.
When they are engaged / a little contracted, there is strength there which both pressurizes the air in the lungs and also stops your guts from herniating through your abdominal or pelvic wall.

Without thinking about your air or your stomach, just say "Tsssssssss" loudly. Your breathing apparatus just worked perfectly how it's supposed to. Now, put your hand on your stomach and repeat so you can feel what actually happened.
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