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Tongue position high register



 
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Shaft
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Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject: Tongue position high register Reply with quote

Last October Clint McLaughlin helped me adjust my tongue placement. He says that he will start many students with this but I was very set with my ways and didnt attempt to adjuat this until that time. 8 mths later this is where my chops are at adjusting to it.

My tip of the tongue is down behind my lower teeth and I push the rest of my tongue forward creating very little space between that and the front of my chops.

It has helped a lot with efficiency and as a result... endurance. While not amazing this is a place where I was not able to play nearly as often as I can now.


Here is a clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqqCXG490Es
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Tongue position high register Reply with quote

Shaft wrote:
Last October Clint McLaughlin helped me adjust my tongue placement. He says that he will start many students with this but I was very set with my ways and didnt attempt to adjuat this until that time. 8 mths later this is where my chops are at adjusting to it.

My tip of the tongue is down behind my lower teeth and I push the rest of my tongue forward creating very little space between that and the front of my chops.

It has helped a lot with efficiency and as a result... endurance. While not amazing this is a place where I was not able to play nearly as often as I can now.


Here is a clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqqCXG490Es



Shaft,

In recent years I've come to believe that a tongue movement which improves range does so more because of the physical assist that it gives to either the lower or upper lip. Rather than by channeling the airstream differently.

Trying put this more succinctly...

As the tongue moves forward it tends to contact the left and right sides of the lips. And by the way, the trumpet can be played without the lower lip. Simply by putting the tongue in the same place as the lower lip was. We don't do this however because for obvious reasons it is impossible to articulate.

There once was an outstanding high school trombonist who used his tongue in place of his lower lip! Yet he sounded great. Even more impressive and most unusual was that he actually found himself competing for the first chair trombone part in the All State Band!!! And this was for a huge state. Not Rhode Island or Delaware... Yes indeed it wasnt until the state judges started grilling him. Testing to see if he could blow the principal t-bone part. He had made it all that way by himself! Completely self taught. Before anyone even noticed he couldnt articulate to save himself lol.

I only offer the above digression to explain how the tongue can take up much of the load in brass playing. Now ten years ago I wouldnt have believed in the tongue arch or movement. Because the way my chops work? Doesnt allow for any advantage through using my tongue.

At any rate these days Ive definitely become a believer that a forward tongue movement can help range in some trumpet players. Not me personally of course but definitely for some others. Apparently Kurt Thompson is one of these type too. Good upper register.

Where I disagree with some of them is their explanation of why the forward tongue movement works. They often claim the reason is "faster air".

Instead in reality their tongue movement is only assisting the lower lip in supporting the upper. In its way the forward tongue kind of gives an "extra pair of legs" for the embouchure to stand on.

And the way I came to believe in this was through some experimentation with an alternative embouchure setting. Was abt ten years ago and just for fun I chose to study a new chop setting that Steve Reid used. The chop setting he uses for some seriously powerful triple C's.

"Triple", not "double" C's...

Well I couldnt make much headway at all on his setting. Nothing at all happened until I tried supporting the back of my lips with a forward tongue movement. Upon doing this? My weak high C became really loud. Aa did all the notes up to and even past double C. Although it was just an experiment. I play far better over all on my regular setting.

It then dawned on me that "Oh YES! So that's what those other guys are talking about". And yet when I play in my most natural lip position? A tongue movement does not help me at all.

Its through these kinds of experimentation, question asking and the application of critical thinking that one can reason why an embouchure works for one fellow and not at all for the next one.

By the way Shaft,

Keep up that upper register work! You're doing it a different way than I do but that is fine. This apparently is the way it works for you. And having watched you play? Thought I should suggest that you work that embouchure more from the middle register on UP. Not just the upper register on down.

As your chops kind of remind me of some of those Stevens system dudes. Those were the guys who built their extreme upper register first. Then gradually added more and more lower tones to it. Like if you could blow a solid High F or G and then go back down the scale to a top line F natural.

But this time hit both ends of the scale nice and fat.

That would be a good sign that you'll eventually start to fatten the notes on down to tuning note C and then sooner or later down to Low C. Then at last finally low F#. At least I think this is a way which could work for you.

As for me? I'm a more conventional player. I work better from the middle register on up...

Being able to connect registers near seamlessly is the ultimate goal. As it is now your highest notes tend to lose some of the tonal color that we hear an octave lower. And this is fine for right now. But as you expand your range up? Also try and get this upper register to fill out and sound like your middle register.

Keep up the good work!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:28 am    Post subject: Re: Tongue position high register Reply with quote

Shaft wrote:
Last October Clint McLaughlin helped me adjust my tongue placement. He says that he will start many students with this but I was very set with my ways and didnt attempt to adjuat this until that time. 8 mths later this is where my chops are at adjusting to it.

My tip of the tongue is down behind my lower teeth and I push the rest of my tongue forward creating very little space between that and the front of my chops.

It has helped a lot with efficiency and as a result... endurance. While not amazing this is a place where I was not able to play nearly as often as I can now.


Here is a clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqqCXG490Es


There you go! And yes, the efficiency created by using proper tongue levels is one of the best aspects of it. Not to condone taking time off or being lazy, but I just don't have to practice that much to maintain endurance, and I think the reason for that is I just don't have to physically work as hard for the same output as someone who hasn't gotten the knack of proper tongue levels.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Dieter Z
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the last two years I have been working on tounge level.

However. I really don't know where my tongue is placed.

How do you guys know where your tongue is?

The wayI work on it is thinking aaa for the lower register and eee for the upper register.
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For position anymore I just think about pushing my tongue forward for the most part. I'm not really doing much with the aaaa or eee anymore but it may still be part of what I am doing subconsciously.

If anything I think aaaah as long and as high as possible as to not adjust the timbre or sound.

Here is a clip from yesterday. The sound is fleshing out as I play more each day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozxQ5y-ageA

Btw - I looked in the mirror and saw the lower left and right move out when I push my tongue forward like that. It does support the embouchure big time. After 25 years never using that it's really like an octave key 🔑 in a way.
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Last edited by Shaft on Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dieter Z wrote:
Since the last two years I have been working on tounge level.

However. I really don't know where my tongue is placed.

How do you guys know where your tongue is?

The wayI work on it is thinking aaa for the lower register and eee for the upper register.


Don't worry, you're on the right track. While the exact position of the tongue for any given player on any given note cannot really be described, the general movements (aw as in "saw" for lower notes and eee as in "sea" for higher notes) can be.

With that in mind, as you practice exercises such as flexibilities that involve tongue level, think eee for the higher notes and aw for the lower notes and notice and pay attention to the feeling and movement of the tongue (and everything else) as you change registers, always striving to sound as good as you can in the moment. With time and practice it all becomes more and more automatic.

Especially helpful are flexibility exercises that don't "bounce around" a lot, but instead, start on a lower note and climb up through the partials to a higher note and then back down again. Through the use of extrapolation, and by paying attention to how we blow stronger, arch our tongues, and the feel of whatever we as individuals do with our lips as we climb up through the partials, we can learn what we need to do to reach into higher and higher registers this way.

There's nothing really magical or mysterious about the extreme upper register (the Double High C range) - it's just a continuation of what we do as we ascend from the lower register to the middle register and from there to the upper register (High C range). More strength needs to be developed (especially air power) for most, but as far as gaining the feel of it, the extreme upper register is really just a continuation of the rest of the range (assuming we want to reach it without the use of some sort of "trick" second embouchure).

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The questions to ask here are,

"What benefit does a tongue movement give range production"? And,

"Who can acheive the described benefit if any?

I can't answer the first question from my own perspective. As at least when I set my chops in their usual position? I derive no positive result.

However by experienting with different embouchure settings? Yes I can conclusively state that there is a benefit. Granted my over-all playing control is diminished due to setting an embouchure I'm far less experienced with.

Having said that? And from the realm of someone using an alternative embouchure which I'd probably never use in performance?

The benefit seems to be a stability in the production of high notes. That and better volume. And I noticed this both upon the Stevens setting aforthen on something resembling the Superchops setting. In each of these the notes between high C and double C were strengthened. And at times I could not even produce these notes without pushing my tongue forward. So a forward tongue setting was not only desireable but an actual necessity.

As to what my forward tongue movement did? This is not as important to answer as the first two questions. Granted it is a natural and obvious question to the researcher. But not a necessity to know the reason. I dont need to understand the kinetic theory of mass/energy when I drive a car. I just need to make sure there's some gas in the car before leaving the garage.

However since it is only natural to speculate? My best guess as to what a forward tongue movement can do re range production on the trumpet? Well my hypothesis is that the repositioning of a tongue while ascending to or just playing high notes is that additiinakl support is given to either the bottom of the lower lip. And/or the movement helps stabilize the upper lip.

Because upon learning this trick? I noticed a much more powerful sound come out off the horn. Really loud high G's and double C's etc.

But again I wouldnt use this technique on a gig. Just isnt necessary. Because when playing gigs and rehearsals I never use either of these two alternative chop settings. That and my power in the upper register is more than adequate without changing my embouchure. At least for myself, the idea of usig a togue arch is helpful only for instructional purposes
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of clint Mclaughlin's books and thoughts on his website answer your first question.

As far as it being a trick I would say that in this it does not fit into that category.

For the style of articulation mechanics and tongue placement that this method of approaching the trumpet employs, I am leaving the tip of the tongue touching the back of the lower teeth throughout the range from the bottom of the horn into the upper register.

The low register and mid register is resonant and plenty full with no break or disconnect between any of the octaves.

Not everyone will choose to play this way but it is the way that I have chosen to.

Its just a part of my golf swing if you will.
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