Lou has had a go on a C trumpet for the first time

[RobMason]

[Louise Finch]

Hi

Since this was my thread originally, I thought that I would use it to ask a few things:

I have another orchestra day ahead. I really enjoy these. They are more of the form of a social occasion, with the organisers providing their lovely home and coverted barn as the venue for a themed orchestra day, followed by an excellent buffet luncheon in their house and grounds. There is an excellent guest conductor, and although a social function rather than a professional, gig the players are of a pretty high standard.

We are doing Brahms this time, the Symphony no. 1 and Hungarian Dances. Rightly or wrongly, I've decided to do the Symphony on C trumpet, and Hungarian Dances on Bb. I've got an already transposed version of Hungarian Dances 1, 3 and 10 in my music envelope, the Parlow orchestration of 5 is already in Bb, and 6 is in A, so Bb makes more sense.

I'm probably making things easier rather than considering the sound, but since the Symphony is for C, E, B and C trumpet, I've decided to go with C, and a colleague has lent me a C. We haven't decided which of us is going to play 1st or 2nd, but we are both going to play it on C.

The C which he has kindly lent me, is a Kanstul made 3 digit serial number F Besson Meha with a fixed leadpipe.

I've played it so far with the mouthpiece I play on my Yamaha Xeno II Bb, a James R New combination which is effectively a 3C, with Jim New's 6.5 sleeve.

It plays well and is obviously a decent instrument. Intonation seems a little funky. I'm not sure whether it is me just acclimatising to a C trumpet, the suitably of my mouthpiece, or just the nature of the beast.

Fourth space Eb is horribly flat, although I can't make it so when playing scales, so I can obviously lip it up sufficiently, and just need to get used to doing so without thinking about it. I haven't done much with this trumpet, but I think that fourth line D is also flat. D and C# at the bottom of the stave seem better in tune than on my Bb, with less need to extend the slides.

The sound is also rather on the bright side in my opinion, even for a C again in my opinion, although I'm admittedly not very experienced with C trumpets. I imagine that a deeper cup/larger backbore would possibly give more the sound I have in mind.

Anyway, although I can borrow this C right up to the orchestra day, it has made me think about possibly getting a C as something to play around with and use on occasions, so I don't want to pay too much.

Somebody has suggested the John Packer C:

https://www.johnpacker.co.uk/prod/jp-trumpet-c-jp152/1061

Since the Gear for Music instruments are often basically the same as the John Packer student instruments, with the John Packer variants having some extra feature such as a red brass leadpipe, I thought that I'd check out the Gear for Music £150 C trumpet (which on this occasion is completely different to the John Packer). There is a YouTube video of it, and in my opinion it sounds very tinny compared to the same guy playing their professional (admittedly only just £340) Bb model. I am wondering whether at this price point, the John Packer C trumpet will also sound tinny.

For a budget instrument, I think that I could cope with slightly wonky although manageable intonation and would expect a poorer (although it must be acceptable) build quality, but what do you do with an instrument with a tinny sound. I like to feel that I have a nice full sound and could get the best out of it, but how much can you over come an instrument with a thin sound?

I'm in a bit of a hurry so haven't really structured this as a definite question, but hopefully you know what I mean?

Many thanks

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[kevin_soda]

I have the same horn with the interchangeable leadpipe and it has the same funky pitch tendencies. I'm not sure why. I like everything else about it though. Is the leadpipe factory stock? I was considering a different leadpipe but if that doesn't fix the problem then I don't know what will. I bought mine used and one of the previous owners had replaced it and then put it back. Anyway, it's not just C trumpets and it's not you. Those horns are a little funky.
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Kevin

[Jerry]

This doesn't address your question: you'll probably be happier playing Eb 2-3 on just about any C-trumpet instead of with only the second valve. (You might also find the neighboring E easier to play in tune by fingering it 1-2 or 3 instead of open.)

I can't comment on the brands you mention. However, try to find a used Yamaha 6445HII at a good price. They were played for awhile in some US professional orchestras.

Good luck with your C-trumpet search.

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Andy Del]

Hi Lou

You will need to use 2/3 for the high Eb and 1/2 for the E, maybe 1/3 for D, just like the octave below. This is normal for C trumpets. What one needs to sod is get used to the beat as it is a totally different trumpet. The sound will be a bit brighter, the lay o pitch nothing like a Bb and even the mouthpiece may seem to be closer to the valves. That's life.

What does seem to help is to play very simple melodies, swapping from Bb to C. You can transpose if you like. Make the C sing, take your time and get to know the horn. It does take time. Later, with the right C, you may find your Bb sits in the case a lot!

As far as a Packer C trumpet goes, DON'T. Pay peanuts, buy monkeys is the rule of thumb. Far more than a Bb, the fit of a C is critical to it working. Get a cheap one, and you will regret wasting even those few quid!

I did see a second hand C which was fantastic a while ago. It was in the Schagerl factory, and bore their brand name. I looks just like the Kanstul you are using... plus it was quite affordable! Give them a call and ask.

cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...

[Louise Finch]

[cheiden]

Since you like the Yamaha brand you might consider a used 6000-series.

I'd encourage you take time to acclimate to both the intonation and the tone. The intonation will fight you until you put in several solid weeks of playing. And if the tone seems brighter or more penetrating that will have great utility when one or two trumpets need to get on top of an entire orchestra. If you change things to sound similar to a Bb that doesn't really help.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[Louise Finch]

[jaysonr]

Hi Lou,
Have fun w/ your C experience. Others have suggested the alternate fingerings, which will help your intonation. If you can get your hands on a mouthpiece with a Bach 24 style backbore, give that a blow and see if it adds warmth to your sound. I know a pro orchestra player who only uses a 10 backbore (with a 25 hole), but I just can't make a 10 work on C. Even w/ a stock 27 hole, a 24 backbore might open the C up a little, and it might help the intonation a bit. I know you are in England, so not sure how easy it'd be to come by inexpensively.

Otherwise, just play it as much as possible. One thing that helped me get acclimated to the C was playing scales and Clarke exercises transposing back and forth so they "sound" in the same Key (F on C, G on Bb, Eb on C, F on Bb, etc.) Get a feel for the sound and get the fingers used to pushing different buttons for the same sound--it's quite a bit a mental I believe. Also simple things like holding the C in your right hand and your Bb in your left, and keep the 1st valve down on the C and swap back and forth playing concert F. It might sound silly, but stuff like that helped me when I first got a C.

I hope this helps!
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Isaiah 40:8
3 John 2

[Louise Finch]