• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

What possible good is there in having an F above double C?



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:51 am    Post subject: What possible good is there in having an F above double C? Reply with quote

Am offering the question rhetorically. That said? I suppose there definitely is some entertainment value to the note. Btw: please feel free to share ypur thoughts on."what is high enough"?

Biviano uses the tone well at the end of his famous Jazz solo in "Things Aint What They Used To Be". On Basie's band.

Okay he kinda splatters his F above double C a little at the very last note but is to great effect. And its a fantastic solo! Not only in execution but in his those most cool jazz licks of his. That and his supreme technical ability around double C. But the gig would have been near equally as good without itl.

What I do with all my newfound range besides trying to make music is practice attacks. Much the same way as French Hornists spend their days. As on the horn? There are just so many tones which can emanate from the same fingering. Just because Ive got lots of register doesnt mean that my E over high C is automatic.

I like to practice my attacks starting on the top line F#, Articulate the note, take mouthpiece off lips, play again. Repeat ten times. Try and attack the note with my lips set as relaxed possible. Play at different volumes.Then ascend to high G, A and B natural just below double C. At the end? My abdominal muscles are sore. And I need a good rest.

But still? I practice hitting the E and F above double C once or twice daily. Its not a big part of my practice. Maybe only a minute's worth of time. That and more as a barometer of my progress. Here is kind of a short story of how my range progressed.

At age 14 I had been playing trumpet five years. After having nothing above a high C prior? I finally bagged the high G. Then within weeks some impressive A's through double C came out. Yet these notes took extreme effort and I only rarely used them. Basically I soon converted into a decent lead player in a big band. Could pound away the high D's all night (second ledger line) and play the occasional F and G above most everywhere they occurred. At any rate I never got pushed out of my lead chair. Whatever deficiencies which I realized that I did have were not apparent to my bandleaders.

Useful. Better than the great majority of my amateur peers. And enough to take on the road for some odd years. But I wasnt a real "scream player". That was what I really wanted.

I think that if you've got a decent high G for occasional use and otherwise sound, solid notes below. And with good reading ability and intonation? You're a valuable player. Somewhere anyway lol. Maybe not in my town. Not lotsa gigs here lol. But still a decent lead player up to high G is useful.

But again it can be frustrating. As for those who, like myself want to blow the double C? Well the high G below can be a helluva long ways underneath.

And without going into what the heck I did to finally get on the path? Well look at it this way,

When I had a good second ledger line high D?
I had a pretty solid F above. Even if I was then afraid of letting itout...

When I had a secure High F and G?
Had at least a piece of the A, B and Double C above.

Those of you or I who want to blow a useful double C? Like in a big band or on a musical setting?

Well as for me I'm probably gonna need at least a practice room ready E to F above double C. Just in order to blow my double C when needed. Might never use that ridiculously high note again in my life. But as a matter of practice strategy? At least I want to have that note well connected to the rest of my register(s) (!). That and playable in the practice room.

The reason for having additional notes in one's register which are above his intended tessitura? Is due to needing to have energy in reserve. I spent a lot of years just barely making it through the last set. I dont want to work that way any more. The answer is Reserve Energy. The ability to blow notes which I may never need. But the one thing which Ive never understood is,

Why do do most trumpet players quit building their range? I'll never understand this. It's like they've got their whole llivs ahead of them but are willing to say,

"okay high C's enough for me". Or,

"Give the lead part to Ralph. I'm on 2nd. Just wasnt born with the chops".

Wel shucks folks? I wasn't "born with high chops" either. In fact I had rather normal range. But my advantage was that I had a strong desire to develop my upper register. Surely I wished that my double C developed earlier. This however wasnt something I could work out in my younger days. But even today sone near 53 years since I started to play?

Most of all I'm glad that I never quit. That and kept at the challenge. And as mentioned,

I'll never understand why so many trumpet players quit trying to build their range. Its like, you're not doing anything anyway! Why not build the upper register? You're still developing other elements of your technique. Thus?

What stops a trumpet player from building, building, and building? I really want to know. And most of all? Keep up the good work!
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8964
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I continue building range (double C, workable E above high C) because, like the man said, "because it's there".

But regarding someone stopping at a particular place, it could be that "you have to pick your battles". Meaning, there is only so much time in ones schedule and there's so much to work on, that extreme range may hardly take precedence over slurs, endurance, improvisation, etc.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe it's not so much that they stop trying to develop range, more that they hit a wall they can't get through. Being born with the right tools is definitely a real factor, I know from personal experience that the mp can make a difference and you can beat your brains out doing it a certain way and no matter how hard you work you won't make progress. I've probably been more stubborn than a lot of people would have been.

I believe Maynard quit trying to build his range at some point - he was never a triple-C at will player - double F is the highest I recall hearing him go - probably because the range he had was enough. Or he just couldn't go higher.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Maybe it's not so much that they stop trying to develop range, more that they hit a wall they can't get through. Being born with the right tools is definitely a real factor, I know from personal experience that the mp can make a difference and you can beat your brains out doing it a certain way and no matter how hard you work you won't make progress. I've probably been more stubborn than a lot of people would have been.

I believe Maynard quit trying to build his range at some point - he was never a triple-C at will player - double F is the highest I recall hearing him go - probably because the range he had was enough. Or he just couldn't go higher.



Yes there isnt much point in playing far above double C. Not to entertain on a broad scale. It impresses other trumpet players. Yet this audience isnt large enough to impress major recording labels. Maynard had a hard enough time fighting Columbia Records. Back in the late 1970's the recording executives forced Maynard to employ the company's session me. All great players but Maynard wanted to use his same band that he toured with.

No dice said these powerful sharks. Thus I digress. Again! lol.

However most the cats who have outstanding tone on the trumpet in the upper register tend to not exceed double C by much.

Similarly when I listen to Brisbois I'm always impressed.yet I cant help but notice that he did not have a really big tone above High C. He had a good, controlled tone. Which no doubt made him the most desirable lead player for recording in the 1960's. Yet Maynard had much more body to his tone

I also believe that thoae who must work hard to achieve their upper registers have the better sounding high notes. Compared to thoae whom we observe playing well above double C.

Donald Reinhardt made this observation too. He noted that certain trumpet players who blow on that forward jaw setting whuch he called "Type IVA" could maintain good composure. Even while playing in a register so high that most trumpet players dobt even know exists!

And in my occasional conversations with Trumpet pro Chris L out of the East Coast he would often note some "tp
Type IVA" players who, when they were in good shape and preparedness can play their double C as easily as their high C. Spooky stuff to my way of thinking. Aa according to Chris a well seasoned type IVA can move a whole octave interval. Say high C to double C while using about the same effort as most the rest of us expend while moving just between a major second! Like moving up and down between high C and D. Incredible technique.

But sometimes the full tone doesnt come with the package. According to Reinhardt,

One group displayed unlimited range with fantsstuc control and endurance. While,

The other group showed more physical energy being displayed. That and a more limited high end but wuth great resonance.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RussellDDixon
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 830
Location: Mason, OH

PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not disagreeing with you at all; however, I am trying to extend my playable range in both directions. I'd like a very consistent playable double C one day. I can play one daily; however, in the context of a two hour concert and at will is a different situation. Range is maybe 10% of my daily practice with the other being legit studies. Range comes last as recommended by Wayne Bergeron.


I love hearing the likes of Jon Faddis exceeding double C as well as Steve Reid. This album is a very exciting album and has some very tasteful high notes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbgO7WXpm00 - Dave Norman

Listen to Biviano on the "Very Alive in England" live at Ronnie Scott's CD by Buddy Rich ... end of "Dancing Men" ... I believe he nails an F#. Impressive "live" recording all the way through. Enjoy.
_________________
Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Lynn Nicholson Model Monette Prana XLT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To address the OP's specific question, whether there is a benefit to having an F over double C is something which is highly personal.

I've said this many times on this forum but it bears repeating: If you have a solid G below double C, if it's strong and you never miss, you have enough range to play 99+% of the lead charts out there.

It's very unusual for a chart to require anything above the G below double C. I've been performing big band charts for over 45 years and I've never seen a chart that actually requires a written double C.

Producing beautiful music has never been dependent on playing a double C and it's never been necessary for a player to have range to double C to be considered an excellent or even a legendary player.

Some players are very happy with their range. They don't work on building their range further because they don't see any useful purpose for doing so. They'd rather focus on on developing their other skills. There's nothing wrong with that. More power to them.

I enjoy hearing scream players but I have no desire to play that way. My heroes are Clifford Brown and Clark Terry. No screaming needed.
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
To address the OP's specific question, whether there is a benefit to having an F over double C is something which is highly personal.

I've said this many times on this forum but it bears repeating: If you have a solid G below double C, if it's strong and you never miss, you have enough range to play 99+% of the lead charts out there.

It's very unusual for a chart to require anything above the G below double C. I've been performing big band charts for over 45 years and I've never seen a chart that actually requires a written double C.

Producing beautiful music has never been dependent on playing a double C and it's never been necessary for a player to have range to double C to be considered an excellent or even a legendary player.

Some players are very happy with their range. They don't work on building their range further because they don't see any useful purpose for doing so. They'd rather focus on on developing their other skills. There's nothing wrong with that. More power to them.

I enjoy hearing scream players but I have no desire to play that way. My heroes are Clifford Brown and Clark Terry. No screaming needed.


This is a useful post. As yes if you have a solid high G for occasional use and able to play it at least two sets of music a night?

You''re not only a good lead player but fairly uncommon. Like Ive got maybe two guys on my cellohone who could satisfy those requirements. At least at some point in their lives. None made much money playing lead but thats not relevent.

Most the cats who think they can play lead? Well their intonation isnt so good. And really truth be told they oughta stick to high D and lower.

However if you really have the desire to blow scream? You're probably gonna need a few notes above double C to pull it off. And being a scream player wont necessarily allow you any more playing opportunities than being justa good high G man.

I stated the o/p only from a practical level. Not as a promise of future riches playing high notes. I guess what told me that I wanted to learn to play scream was Biviano's lead on the "Theme From Love Story" on the 1971 live "Rich In London" album.

Was among Biviano's best recorded early work. Oddly its mostly a reed feature and the tenor player knocks me out. However Biviano left me speechless. In fact just today, some 46 years later I listened to him play that line twice. And I went to pieces...

THAT is the sound my friends. I try to get that on every lead phrase which calls for it. Also, Biviano while really nailing it is not absolutely dead perfect. Close but not dead perfect. And I suppose some listeners will always consider his work too extreme. But his was The Sound my friends. He was pushing his limits and you can almost feel him riding the razor's edge between brilliance and train wreck. It is raw but perfect. I rate the line number 1 of all time.

Whats funny is other than that one chorus? The trumpets dont really do much on the chart. And the rest of the album is a 10 too.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dr_trumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 2532
Location: Cope, IN

PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my viewpoint, I played Brandenburg 2 last October, and was glad I had that range so that I could play the work. The important part about playing in the extreme register is not the range, but can you play it musically. Those notes aren't often used in orchestral literature, but play a Broadway musical or a pops concert with the orchestra, and you are glad they are in your arsenal of available talents. If one looks at the "potential need" for notes, one may be missing not the need, but the appropriate application.

A few years ago I was at the National Trumpet Competition serving on a judging panel, and went over to the exhibits (when they were upstairs in the student union instead of downstairs). There were all sorts of trumpeters there to try the trumpets, and doubles Cs and above were flying all over the place. I had a goal: to purchase a G1L-4 for my upcoming doctoral recital, and to play a Bb for a friend he was wanting to buy. I decided to go with him and get the Bb first. We went into the room, double Xs everywhere, all loud and very crass. I picked up the first of the three horns he was interested in, and played an etude by Mel Broiles in the style of Mahler, and the room came to a screeching (*literally*) halt. You would have thought I was the Pied Piper, playing that gorgeous, musical work that does go to a high C#, but no higher. It was quiet while I tried all three, a lot of folks were listening. We settled on one, and the room went back to the loud high note fiesta.

I then went and located the three G1L-4s, and grabbed a chair to play the beginning of the Vivaldi Concerto in C for two trumpets, for which the G1L-4 seems perfectly made. Again, the high notes stopped, and people listened while I played the three instruments. I also tried the first movement of Bach Cantata #51, another work written for this horn clearly! (or maybe the horn is made for the work). Either way, I settled on one, and the room returned to the fiesta.

This to say, I wonder if sometimes younger people play those high, screechy notes because they don't have anything else they know? Sometimes, checking the range is great, but with certainty I can tell you the number of times I have been required to play a double C in performance. It's fewer than the number of valves on my G1L-4. But, if it were all I knew to play, I might...

Hope this adds to the discussion,

AL
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9828
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reason for having an F about Double High C: Being able to entertain folks (mainly other trumpet players) by doing this:

https://www.facebook.com/andaluciamusicalinstruments/videos/374619932722038/

Side benefit: By doing the above, and doing it on a Bach 1-1/4C, one can also dispel the rumor that tiny, shallow and/or restrictive mouthpieces are needed to play into this register.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9828
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But on the other hand, truth be told, he used his "cheater mouthpiece" (a Mt Vernon 3C with a #24 Throat) on this video:

https://www.facebook.com/TuryArturoSandoval/videos/1538651769512778/

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
snichols
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Posts: 586
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Side benefit: By doing the above, and doing it on a Bach 1-1/4C, one can also dispel the rumor that tiny, shallow and/or restrictive mouthpieces are needed to play into this register.


But only if you do a lot of mouthpiece buzzing, right?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

snichols wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
Side benefit: By doing the above, and doing it on a Bach 1-1/4C, one can also dispel the rumor that tiny, shallow and/or restrictive mouthpieces are needed to play into this register.


But only if you do a lot of mouthpiece buzzing, right?



To each his own Snichols. There are few absolutes.

It is true, as John mentions that Arturo uses a mouthpiece similar to a Bach 3C. Yet as Van Cleave said the other day,

"Mouthpieces are like shoe sizes. You wouldnt wear Michael Jordan's size 17 basketball shoes and expect to play as well as the Hall Of Fame basketball forward".

Van Cleave incidentally tends to prefer larger diameters himself too. As does Arturo. However this is just the way which these men have found works best for them.

Conversely Cat Anderson used one of the smallest mouthpieces ever made. And yet he still had a big tone.

Mouthpiece choice is a most personal decision. When I first started blowing some good high ones I was about 14 and a half years old. And at the time I made an unwise decision to choose a really large mouthpiece. Even though I was aspiring to become a high note, lead player at the time.

I had read something in "The Instrumentalist" magazine which said that,

"Woody Herman's lead trumpet plays double C's all night on a Bach 1C mouthpiece"!

Looking back I wished that I had never seen that remark. Because I chose to copy the concept. Playing everything on a Bach 1 & 1/4C mouthpiece. Frankly looking back? I can't see how I pulled off what I did.

My useable range was still an A above high C. Yep it surely was a very musical sounding A above high C. Yes but for only five minutes...
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9828
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

snichols wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
Side benefit: By doing the above, and doing it on a Bach 1-1/4C, one can also dispel the rumor that tiny, shallow and/or restrictive mouthpieces are needed to play into this register.


But only if you do a lot of mouthpiece buzzing, right?




I don't think Arturo makes a habit of mouthpiece buzzing as part of his daily routine.

And +1 to Lionel's recent post. There are many players out there trying to play on mouthpieces that are too big for them, and at the other end of the spectrum, there are many players trying to play on mouthpieces that are too small for them. Find what works for you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
snichols wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
Side benefit: By doing the above, and doing it on a Bach 1-1/4C, one can also dispel the rumor that tiny, shallow and/or restrictive mouthpieces are needed to play into this register.


But only if you do a lot of mouthpiece buzzing, right?




I don't think Arturo makes a habit of mouthpiece buzzing as part of his daily routine.

And +1 to Lionel's recent post. There are many players out there trying to play on mouthpieces that are too big for them, and at the other end of the spectrum, there are many players trying to play on mouthpieces that are too small for them. Find what works for you.


Agreed. There is no cut and dried rule. According to an article in an old issue of Instrumentalist Magazine, one of Woody Herman's lead trumpet players from the 1960's and 70's played "C-6 (double C!) all night on a Bach 1C".

However the majority of good lead players would never use a piece so large. Nor with such a sharp inner edge on the rim.

As. Trumpet player who uses different sized mouthieces I can say with certainty that a mouthpiece which is too large for lots of upper register work is not only going to tire me put much sooner but.that these larger pieces are difficult to get the right kind of upper register tone from. They dont "scream" well.

There's just a special kind of sound which the shallow cup can provide. An experienced lead player can get complete control on some very high notes with the shallow mouthpiece. In general his sounnd is bigger. This because he's not struggling with the piece because its so large.

Take a note such as E flat over high C. Not the highest note but not low either. In fact most trumpet players will never play that note musically. Well instead of using a Bach 1C and really working just to hold that note?

I could use a Schilke 6a in a number 19 throat and absolutely hammer the tone. Hit it with far more ease than the Bach 1C and if I need the B flat a perfect fifth above? Its just there. Far less struggle.

And as I mentioned there's just a certain kind of "sound" you get in the extreme upper register on the shallower pieces. I think the key to getting this sound is to keep the throat and back-bore combination very open.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In answer to the thread title, how about the fact that if you have that F, your double C should be pretty darn consistent and useable?

Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ljazztrm
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Dec 2001
Posts: 2681
Location: Queens and upstate, NY

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't anyone buy into the Storks' philosophy? Some well-known players recommend their book, 'Understanding the Mouthpiece'. A lot of good info here: http://storkcustom.com/doctor-mouthpiece/

So, yeah, if a player has big, thick chops, a 1C diameter or bigger might be perfect.. but probably a softer bite and a shallower cup (depending on the player's lip protrusion). Van Cleave uses a bigger diameter than a 1C, but it is a shallow V cup with a very comfy, 'Sanders-like' rim.

Cat Anderson's diameters weren't all that extremely small.. The one's I played were around say .610-.630 from what I recall. The big, thick rim makes it look like a smaller diameter than it is. Of course it was quite shallow with a tight throat and backbore.

Well I ordered one of Legends MF TM's.. Derek's got his take on it at a .613 diameter.. I like a medium deep V cup for a great jazz sound. My Warburton 10MV/9 is a really nice sounding jazz piece..

Lionel - you know Derek has his take on the Al Cass 3 series.. I think they are a .617 diameter..Haven't tried one...yet! All the best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
bike&ed
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Posts: 1833

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Rick Baptist recently said that in 40+ years of being one of the 2 most successful recording trumpet players of his generation, he played a DHC in performance literally just twice in his entire career. High notes don't seem terribly important from this perspective...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="ljazztrm"

So, yeah, if a player has big, thick chops, a 1C diameter or bigger might be perfect.. but probably a softer bite and a shallower cup (depending on the player's lip protrusion). Van Cleave uses a bigger diameter than a 1C,

Lionel - you know Derek has his take on the Al Cass 3 series.. I think they are a .617 diameter..Haven't tried one...yet! All the best, Lex[/quote]

Van Cleave not only has a big upper lip with lots of red but it appears to extend well below his upper lip once his mouthpiece contacts his chops. Although I havent heard him speak of this yet the extension of the upper lip below the upper teeth is crucial to playing well (or at all) above high C.

It wasnt until I took a little time to purposely push my upper lip a little below my upper teeth that my upper register became accurate fluent and had good endurance.

Plenty of trumpet players do not push their lip below their upper teeth and most of them play pretty good. Except that that cant play above a high D if their life depended upon it. In fact just by looking at another trumpet player set up his chops I can usually tell if hehas a decent upper register. If he does not allow perhaps an eighth of an inch of his upper lip to descend below his upper teeth? He will not have an upper register. Period. Its an easy matter to fix but from my experience most trumpet players wont try it. Im not sure why this is so but regardless Ive had great difficulty communicating this easy to learnmatter with other trumpet players. Lately Ive concluded that most trumpet players dont want to play lead. Not sure why exactly. As at one pount in my life I would have given my eye teeth to play like I do now. But this is my conclusion:

Even when given the instruction and tools which they beed? Most trumpet players lack the drive to really take the steps necessary to learn the upper register. In my life I have met many trumpet players with an overLl technique at least a little better than my own. But they couldnt play lead to save their life. Ive taken somany gigs away from guys like that I feel sorry for them...

Lex,

Nothing in this world plays like an Al Cass.

I have duplicated Al's rim design and put it on my own mouthpieces. Yes. The 3x does feel like a .617 although with its well rounded bite it is difficult to gauge specifically where the inner rim edge is. But I'll tell you this most emphatically,

Schools which used to distribute Al Cass pieces to their trumpet sections all won significant competitions. Back in the day high school trumpet players with useable high C's were rare. My high school had a whole section capable of high C's and three kids who could absolutely paste double C's.

All due to Al Cass.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ljazztrm
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Dec 2001
Posts: 2681
Location: Queens and upstate, NY

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Lionel, have you ever checked out Jeff Smiley's Balanced Embouchure method? He talks all about that upper lip thing and has remedial exercises for it. There are several players in my area who really got over their chop issues using his method.

Yeah, the Al Cass..a lot of cats years ago used to use them. I know Red Rodney used a 3x3 quite a bit. Booker Little used a 1-28. I think the 1-28 was popular for a lot of jazz cats. Of course Dizzy used a modified 2-24. I love the rims with the soft bite and feel to them. I used to have a cornet 3X5 that I played on trumpet with an adapter..should of never sold that one! Don't remember why I did - It was so easy to just pick up and play with that rim. I really like the MF style rims. Just got Derek Saidak's MF FBL TM..medium deep V and super comfy.. I'll be working all day tomorrow and will have a chance to do a lot of jazz playing on it..The feel is awesome. Hey, maybe you'd dig this one as well:
https://www.legendsbrass.com/legends-dizz.html
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Shaft
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 974

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't say whether or not it will ever come in to play on stage but if those notes are in the wheelhouse.....that whole octave below it is that much easier to command due to the efficiency, setup, etc.

A vette has no legal use on the freeway at 150 mph but it sure helps to be able to accelerate in and out of dangerous traffic at the lower speeds if needed and move back into a car free zone.
_________________
🎺
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group